[Non-included nation] BELGIUM

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Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

Postby Sevatar » Mon 12 May 2014 20:30

:o Woppedo!
Tres Chic as those:

Image

and

Image

Gotta love vehicles like that. ;)

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FrangibleCover
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Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

Postby FrangibleCover » Sun 26 Feb 2017 19:19

Okay, I've had a bit of a look through this thread and I think as the remaining Central European NATO member (but one) Belgium deserves some consideration for the next Wargame, whenever it may be. As such, I've had a go at assembling a RD timeframe list using this thread and some other sources. Units in italics are optional and either waiting on sources or opinions.

Logistics - I've always wanted to take 9 cards of tracked CVs in a national deck. The beauty is that there are no extra models involved.
Spoiler : :
  • Iltis PC
  • AMX-13 mod.56 PC
  • M113A1-B-CP - Redundant and not as interesting as the Sultan or AMX
  • AIFV-B-CP - Redundant and not as interesting as the Sultan or AMX
  • CVRT Sultan
  • M992 VBCL - Prototype. An old M108 SPG converted into a command centre. May have come into service in 1994.
  • Leopard 1BE PC - It can have AVLS stats but the name was chosen because "Leopard 1BE AVLS PC" is just too much of a letter salad.
  • Alouette III PC - Belgium operated very small numbers of helicopters overall so the Navy will be handling the logistics and the Army will be providing the battlefield support helicopters.
  • Équipe de Commandement - FAL 50.61s and a MAG M2. There's going to be a lot of Google French and some Dutch in this I'm afraid. Just yell at me if I'm stupid :D .
  • TTB - Possible command squad replacement, a unit of signallers that was expected to fight alongside the infantry. Would be a 5 man squad armed with Vigernon SMGs, DM-34s and a MAG M2.
  • MAN 11.136 - A 6 ton class cargo truck, putting it into the rather rare 20-point category with the Scania P39, Jupiter and Ural 4320.
  • AMX-13 mod.56 Cargo - Redundant with the Dutch one but it keeps the Belgian theme of going really heavy on the AMX-13 platform and supplies a lighter option than the MAN.
  • Unimog mod.404 - Practically redundant with the AMX-13 Cargo.
  • Sea King Mk.48 - A continuation of the Naval theme for logistical roles.
  • FOB

Infantry - 15 point Mech Shock for NATO. Also some other dudes for the two deck slots you have left.
Spoiler : :
  • Lanciers - Regulars. FAL 50.61s, an RLC-83 Blindicide with the extended range and a MAG M2
  • Lanciers '90 - FNCs, M72A4s and a MAG M2
  • Fusiliers D'assaut - Mech Shock. FN Uzis, M72s and a FALO. Could also be called Chasseurs Ardennais but that's a more specific unit.
  • Fusiliers D'assaut '90 - FNCs, M72A4s and a Minimi M2. Could get the PzF 3 if they really need it I suppose.
  • Paracommandos - Elite. FAL 50.63s, M72s and a FALO.
  • Paracommandos '90 - FNCs, a PzF 3 and a Minimi M3. Might be a prototype unit, I'm not sure.
  • Paragenie - Elite unit armed with FAL 50.63s and a flamethrower of currently indeterminate type. May or may not be realistic.
  • ParaMILAN - 5 man Elite unit armed with FNCs, a MILAN 2 and a Minimi M3. May or may not be balanced.
  • Gevechtsgenie - Armed with FN Uzis and DM34 Handflammpatrones (A disposable phosphorus grenade projector).
  • MILAN Équipe - Regular. FAL 50.61s and a MILAN
  • MILAN 2 Équipe - FNCs and a Milan 2.
  • Mistral Équipe - FNCs and a Mistral

Tanks - I can't name this section 'Armour' with a straight face.
Spoiler : :
  • CVRT Scorpion Light Tank - This name might actually be longer than the vehicle, any suggestions?
  • M41
  • M47
  • Leopard 1BE
  • Leopard 1BE AVLS
  • Leopard 1A5(BE) - Prototype. This seems like a good time to point out that the Finnish mega-ammo came from Belgium and therefore there might be some rather nice options for this old gun.
  • Leopard 1A6(BE) - Even Prototyper.
  • The whole MARS 15 family - The Belgians were undoubtably keen on the AMX-13 chassis but most of the MARS vehicles don't really provide anything new to the deck and none were actually bought. The Light Tank variant could just about find a role but even then the Cobra and Leopards squeeze it out.

Recon - All the options are pretty light but I refuse to bend to the recon tank meta and add a Leopard 1BE Reco for the sake of it, even though it's justifiable.
Spoiler : :
  • Iltis [⚯]
  • FN 4RM/62F ABC ⚯ - The C is for Cannon, a 90mm one at that
  • AS-24 [|⚯|] - A motorised trike used by the Paracommandos for airborne operations. Exceptional optics light recon vehicle like the Mönkijä.
  • CVRT Scimitar ⚯
  • CVRT Scorpion ⚯
  • Cobra AFV ⚯ - Prototype. Generally very similar to the Scorpion 90, with thinner armour and a fancy electrical propulsion system. Basically the Tiger (P) to the Scorpion 90's Tiger (H). Apparently the fourth prototype had a bow MG, which is not something you see very often in the mid 1980s so we'll have that one.
  • M113A1-B-SCB [|⚯|] - Your bog-standard battlefield radar.
  • M113A1-B-VW [⚯] - A FIST-V type thing on an M113 MILAN chassis with the MILAN replaced on its post by an LRF. Armed with a .50 cal.
  • BDX 20mm - I don't know if it was ever built. I'm leaving it out for now.
  • Chasseurs-Jager [⚯] - Regular infantry, or rather Cavalry. FAL 50.61s and a Blindicide RL-100.
  • Luxembourgers [⚯] - Luxembourg supported Belgian operations in NATO with small numbers of light infantry and reconnaissance assets. These guys are shock rated because of reasons. FALs, M72s and a MAG.
  • Luxembourgers '90 [⚯] - AUGs, M72A4s and an AUG HBAR.
  • ESR-GVP [⚯] - Elite Snipers. FAL 50.64s, M72s and a Model 30-11 rifle. The FAL 50.64 seems to be a specialist short-and-light version, perfect for small LRRP teams like the ESR-GVP.
  • Alouette II [⚯] - The most widely used helicopter in Belgium, it will require a different model from the Finnish one unfortunately.
  • A109HO [⚯] - Prototype. Armed with 2x Browning .50s and 6x 70mm rockets in FN combined pods. HeliTOW sight might buy Exceptional optics, it is roof mounted.

Support - Generally plenty of options, nothing particularly stand-out.
Spoiler : :
  • Valkyr VDAA - A BDX modification made by Vickers with some sort of 20mm Air Defence turret. I don't know if it was considered by Belgium or even what kind of turret it was so this is on the reserve list right now.
  • Gepard B2 - Shockingly enough, it's just like the other ones.
  • Gepard B2LV - This variant was intended to use an LRF for terminal fire control, allowing it to be given non-radar stats if needed. It looks like these probably existed in the Dutch and German armies too, sorry!
  • Unimog Mistral - Prototype. Exactly what it sounds like.
  • Berliet Roland IIS - Prototype from Hansbroger's excellent Force Legere thread. An IR Roland II on a truck with 4 ready missiles, while it had a separate Radar system it didn't have an onboard radar and doesn't seem to have had particularly flexible battery interconnectivity. Furthermore, Belgium needs some decent non-radar AA, especially if it's going in a coalition with the Netherlands.
  • HAWK
  • I-HAWK
  • I-HAWK PIP-II
  • FN 4RM/62F AB MiMo - This one has a 60mm breech-loading mortar. I'd consider this for the vehicle section too.
  • BDX 81mm - 13 built for the Gendarmerie. Remind me never to go rioting in Belgium :lol:.
  • AMX-13 mod.56 Mor - 81mm mortar in the back of a VCI
  • M113A1-B-Mor - 107mm variant
  • M108
  • M109
  • M109A2
  • M109A4BE - I'm not actually sure about this one, either on intro date or differences from the M109A2 in Wargame. We could always give it M864 DPICM to complete the tradition of the Low Countries getting US support weapons they themselves don't receive :lol:
  • M110
  • M110A2
  • Unimog LAU-97 - Prototype. A Belgian designed and manufactured light HE MRL firing 70mm rockets.

    Vehicles - Weaponized Optimism
    Spoiler : :
    • MAN Quad .50 - Like the Danish quad .50 but on a clapped out old MAN truck instead.
    • Jagdpanzer Kanone
    • M113A1-B-CSE90 - Prototype. A Cockerill Mk.3 and an pintle MG on an M113 chassis. Thermals 'optional' so that's a nice fudge stat for balancing.
    • Jeep ENTAC
    • Iltis Milan
    • Land Rover TOW - Luxembourg had some TOW vehicles
    • HMMWV TOW-2 - LUXEMBOURG STRONG!
    • BDX MILAN - ST-21 found a picture of one but it seems pretty redundant.
    • AMX-13 mod.56 ENTAC
    • M113-B-MIL - Yet another of ANZAC's unique units stolen :cry:. Armed with a .50 cal.
    • AIFV-B-MILAN - Actually equipped with a Milan 2
    • CVRT Striker
    • CVRT Striker SWIG - Prototype. The UK doesn't get it and Belgium is actually turning out a few interesting systems to I'm not so sure about this one any more.
    • The whole MARS 15 family if we need any of it - As you may have noticed by now Belgium was terribly keen on the AMX-13 chassis so the French MARS 15 programme on a very similar hull may have interested them.

    Transports - Anyone want a BTR-70? No? How about a 5 point 3 FAV transport for those 15 point shock squads?
    Spoiler : :
    • AMX-13 mod.56 VTT
    • M113A1-B-ATK
    • AIFV-B-.50
    • AIFV-B-C25
    • Land Rover - Slower Humvee clone armed with a MAG. Suitable for Luxembourgers and as a ground transport for Paracommandos.
    • BDX - I'd use the turreted Air Force variant with 2x MGs. The Gendarmerie one is more likely to be found at the front but it's unarmed. Obviously, technically this should be a militia or recon transport but Belgium is short on wheels without it.
    • Pandur I - Prototype. I'm going to go weird here and equip the Pandur with another prototype system: The FN BRG-15, a weapon similar to the KPVT. This is one of those choices that's better for flavour than gameplay though, I'm considering removing it to reduce the number of prototypes now that we have the AFSV.
    • AFSV-90 - Prototype. A very interesting vehicle, basically a Ratel 90 that evolved from the same prototype. Can carry 10 men, a pintle mounted MG and a Cockerill Mk.3 90mm gun.
    • CVRT Spartan - Could either be used as a recon transport or as a small team transport like a ground version of the Yugoslav Gazelle.
    • H-34 - Between this thing and the Sea King the Falklands War mod would get a real boost from a Belgian DLC!
    • SA.330 - Belgium had 3 Pumas and really need all the airlift they can get.
    • A109BA - Prototype, somewhat redundant. It could be armed with 2x .50 cals but really the door gun would be just as useful. Alternatively it could get rockets but given the aircraft can only transport 6 I think that 10 guys and 24 rockets is too much of a stretch.
    • Unimog - The standard truck transport
    • HMMWV ⚯ - A recon transport for Luxembourg!

    Helicopters - Pretty thin fare in here. I suppose you don't need much vertical lift in a country that flat.
    Spoiler : :
    • Alouette II SS-11 - Trialed, this is one of those prototypes so bad it's not worth prototyping.
    • Alouette II Roquettes - I assume Eugen knows something about this unit?
    • A109HA - Prototype. Should have TOW-2A, I'd settle for TOW-2 if necessary. Most likely loadout is 8x TOW but if the asymmetry wouldn't be too bad I'd quite like to see a 12 shot Forges Zeebrugge FFAR launcher on one pylon and 4 TOWs on the other.

    Aircraft - Some solid options available, generally centered around the F-16. I'm still figuring loadouts out.
    Spoiler : :
    • SABCA F-104G - 0% ECM. M61A1, 4x AIM-9J.
    • SABCA F-16A-1 - 20% ECM. M61A1, 2x Mk.84, 2x AIM-9N.
    • SABCA F-16A-5 - 20% ECM. M61A1, 4x BL.775, 2x AIM-9N.
    • SABCA F-16A-10 - 20% ECM. M61A1, 12x Mk.82, 2x AIM-9L. - Of questionable utility.
    • SABCA F-16A-15 - 20% ECM. M61A1, 3x AIM-9M, 3x AIM-9M.
    • SABCA F-16A-15OCU - 30% ECM Prototype. M61A1, 2x AGM-65G, 4x AIM-9M. - Could alternatively get AS-30Ls since they were trialled on Belgian F-16s.
    • SABCA F-16AM - 30% ECM Prototype. M61A1, 2x AIM-120A, 2x AIM-9M. - I don't much like it but it's Belgium's only real BVRAAM option.
    • Mirage 5BA - 0% ECM. Twin DEFA 552s, 36x FFARs, 2x AIM-9F.
    • Mirage 5BA RAPPORT II - 30% ECM. Twin DEFA 552s, 4x BLU-1/bs, 2x AIM-9F. - RAPPORT II programme added AN/ALQ-178(V)2 RWR and DECM as well as countermeasure dispensers. Designed as a napalm bomber that can get home to fit in with the deck's cost effective infantry.
    • Mirage 5BA MirSIP - Prototype, first flight in '93 but in service by 1995. Includes a whole slew of upgrades that are irrelevant in Wargame, a laser rangefinder and canards. I don't know what to arm it with though and we've got a couple of prototype aircraft already.
    • Alpha Jet B1 - 10% ECM. DEFA, 36x FFARs. - I'm now actually unsure if the Belgian Alpha Jets were intended for a secondary strike role, especially since they were the French type with the blunt nose. Their loadout of FFARs has been given to the Mirage in the absence of evidence.

    92 units (more than the majority of Blufor) with 13 Prototypes for a 14% Prototype deck (below the Blufor average ratio and fewer than any current DLC nation). Somewhere in the region of 23 new vehicle models are required, along with whatever needs to be done for the infantry and a whole chunk of skinning work.

    Belgium has a focus on light unit play, with good infantry in some excellent transports backed by good FSVs but entirely reliant on ATGMs and coalition partners for killing even medium-heavy armour. While the air force is pretty samey, most tabs include something that's uncommon and, if possible, distinctly Belgian. Overall Belgium is about Canada level, I think. There are a variety of decent units and some exceptional ones but the paucity of good tanks drags them down. This list is far from perfect or final so just pipe up if you have thoughts.

    Quick Strawpoll to check prototype popularity: http://www.strawpoll.me/12620699
    Last edited by FrangibleCover on Tue 28 Mar 2017 09:14, edited 17 times in total.
    "AVRE is not flamethrower, is arsehole tank" - Alexis Le Dressay https://youtu.be/uZSJ5qNYT6E?t=11m14s
    [Non-included Nation] Belgium - Now with prototype selection Strawpoll http://www.strawpoll.me/12620699
    [Non-included Nation] Pakistan

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    Vulcan 607
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    Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

    Postby Vulcan 607 » Sun 26 Feb 2017 22:29

    FrangibleCover wrote:Okay, I've had a bit of a look through this thread and I think as the remaining Central European NATO member (but one) Belgium deserves some consideration for the next Wargame, whenever it may be. As such, I've had a go at assembling a RD timeframe list using this thread and some other sources.

    Logistics - Nothing exciting here really.
    Spoiler : :
    • AMX-13 mod.56 PC
    • Land Rover PC or Iltis PC
    • CVRT Sultan
    • Alouette Artouste - An Alouette II with the crap engine. I've banished it to the Logistics tab so that if anyone can use it effectively they will be crowned King of Wargame.
    • Équipe de Commandement - There's going to be a lot of Google French and some Dutch in this I'm afraid. Just yell at me if I'm stupid :D .
    • AMX-13 mod.56 Cargo
    • Unimog Cargo
    • H-34 or Sea King Mk.48 - Belgium never really operated large numbers of any helicopters, everything is going to have to be used somewhere
    • FOB

    Infantry - 15 point Mech Shock for NATO. Also some other dudes for the two deck slots you have left.
    Spoiler : :
    • Karabiniers - Regulars. FAL 50.61s, an RLC-83 Blindicide with the extended range and a MAG M2
    • Karabiniers '90 - FNCs, M72A4s and a MAG M2
    • Chasseurs Ardennais - Mech Shock. FN Uzis, M72s and a FALO
    • Chasseurs Ardennais '90 - FNCs, M72A4s and a Minimi M2. Could get the PzF 3 if they really need it I suppose.
    • Paracommandos - Elite. FAL 50.63s, M72s and a FALO
    • Paracommandos '90 - P90s, a PzF 3 and a Minimi M2. Might be a prototype unit.
    • Sapeurs-Genie - Could be "Para Pionere" type guys instead. Armed with FN Uzis and Handflammpatrone (A disposable phosphorus grenade projector)
    • MILAN Équipe - Regular. FAL 50.61s and a MILAN
    • MILAN 2 Équipe - Did they operate MILAN 2? If so, FNCs and a Milan 2.
    • Mistral Équipe - FNCs and a Mistral

    Tanks - I can't name this section 'Armour' with a straight face.
    Spoiler : :
    • CVRT Scorpion Light Tank - This name might actually be longer than the vehicle, any suggestions?
    • M41
    • M47
    • Leopard 1BE
    • Leopard 1BE AVLS
    • Leopard 1A5(BE) - Prototype. This seems like a good time to point out that the Finnish mega-ammo came from Belgium and therefore there might be some rather nice options for this old gun.
    • Leopard 1A6(BE) - Even Prototyper.

    Recon - All the options are pretty light but I refuse to bend to the recon tank meta and add a 1BE Reco for the sake of it.
    Spoiler : :
    • Iltis [⚯]
    • FN 4RM/62F ABC ⚯ - The C is for Cannon, a 90mm one at that
    • CVRT Scimitar ⚯
    • CVRT Scorpion ⚯
    • CVRT Scorpion 90 ⚯ - Prototype. I've not got any actual evidence for this but it's a Belgian gun.
    • M113A1-B-SCB [|⚯|]
    • Possibly the BDX 20mm, I don't know if it was ever built. I'm leaving it out for now.
    • Chasseurs-Jager [⚯] - Regular infantry, or rather Cavalry. FAL 50.61s and a Blindicide RL-100.
    • Luxembourgers [⚯] - They're getting to go with Belgium from a lack of other ways to get them into game. Cat A Shock, just because. AUGs, M72A4s and an AUG HBAR.
    • ESR-GVP [⚯] - Elite Snipers. FAL 50.64s, M72s and a Model 30-11 rifle.
    • Alouette Astazou [⚯] - Like the CV but with a better engine.

    Support - Pretty decent AA lineup actually. Generally plenty of options.
    Spoiler : :
    • M42 Duster - Could be a vehicle.
    • Gepard
    • Unimog Mistral - Prototype. Exactly what it sounds like.
    • SANTAL - Prototype. With thanks to Hansbroger's Force Legere. This is a 6 shot Mistral launcher on either a VAB or a Sagaie. I don't know what Belgium intended to use it on and if we can't find out I vote we wedge it on a 4RM/62F chassis. Could replace the Unimog entirely.
    • Berliet Roland IIS - Prototype from the same source. An IR Roland II on a truck with 4 ready missiles.
    • HAWK
    • I-HAWK
    • I-HAWK PIP-II
    • FN 4RM/62F AB MiMo - This one has a 60mm breech-loading mortar. I'd consider this for the vehicle section too.
    • BDX 81mm - 13 built for the Gendarmerie. Remind me never to go rioting in Belgium :lol:.
    • AMX-13 mod.56 Mor - 81mm mortar in the back of a VCI
    • M113A1-B-Mor - 107mm variant
    • M108
    • M109
    • M109A2
    • M109A4BE
    • M110A2

    Vehicles - Weaponized Optimism
    Spoiler : :
    • Jagdpanzer Kanone
    • Jeep ENTAC
    • Land Rover Milan - In UK service this only had Milan 2
    • HMMWV TOW-2 - LUXEMBOURG STRONG!
    • AMX-13 mod.56 ENTAC
    • M113-B-MIL - Yet another of ANZAC's unique units stolen :cry:
    • AIFV-B-MILAN - I'd give the poor bugger a Milan 2 if possible
    • CVRT Striker
    • CVRT Striker SWIG - Prototype. Yeah, the UK doesn't get it, I know.

    Transports - Anyone want a BTR-70? No? How about a 5 point 3 FAV transport for those 15 point shock squads?
    Spoiler : :
    • AMX-13 mod.56 VTT
    • M113A1-B-ATK
    • AIFV-B-.50
    • AIFV-B-C25
    • BDX - I'd use the turreted Air Force variant with 2x MGs. The Gendarmerie one is more likely to be found at the front but it's unarmed. Obviously, technically this should be a militia or recon transport but Belgium is short on wheels without it.
    • Pandur I - Prototype. I'm going to go weird here and equip the Pandur with another Prototype system: The FN BRG-15, a weapon similar to the KPVT. This is one of those choices that's better for flavour than gameplay though.
    • CVRT Spartan - Could either be used as a recon transport or as a small team transport like a ground version of the Yugoslav Gazelle.
    • H-34 or Sea King Mk.48 - Belgium never really operated large numbers of any helicopters, everything is going to have to be used somewhere
    • A109BA - Prototype
    • Unimog - The standard truck transport
    • HMMWV ⚯ - A recon transport for Luxembourg!

    Helicopters - Pretty thin fare in here. I suppose you don't need much vertical lift in a country that flat.
    Spoiler : :
    • Alouette III SS-11 - We already have the model and Belgium had a handful of IIIs
    • Alouette Roquettes - I assume Eugen knows something about this unit?
    • A109HA - Prototype. Really should have 4x TOW-2A, I'd settle for TOW-2 if necessary.

    Aircraft - Pretty decent. I'm halfway though figuring loadouts out.
    Spoiler : :
    • SABCA F-104G - 0% ECM. M61A1, 4x AIM-9F (apparently the Belgians got some German production)
    • SABCA F-16A-1 - 20% ECM. I'm thinking M61A1, as many Mk77s as can be wedged on and 2x AIM-9L.
    • SABCA F-16A-5 - 20% ECM. Dunno. Maybe multiple kinds of Sidewinder like a Lazur?
    • SABCA F-16A-10 - 20% ECM. Still dunno.
    • SABCA F-16A-15 - 20% ECM. Honestly dunno.
    • SABCA F-16A-15OCU - 30% ECM Prototype. M61A1, 2x AIM-120A, 4x AIM-9M (1990 delivery of Ms). I could do with another of these to carry some Mavericks too.
    • Mirage 5BA - 0% ECM. Twin DEFA 552s, 12x Mk.82, 2x AIM-9F.
    • Mirage 5BA RAPPORT II - 20% ECM. Twin DEFA 552s, Some BL.775s, 2x AIM-9F. RAPPORT II programme added AN/ALQ-178(V)2 RWR and DECM.
    • Alpha Jet B1 - 0% ECM. BK-27, 36x SNEBs.
    Alternatively
    • SABCA F-16A-15 - 20% ECM. M61A1, 4x AIM-9M, 2x AIM-9L.
    • SABCA F-16A-15OCU - 30% ECM Prototype. M61A1, 2x AGM-65G, 4x AIM-9M.
      and let the rest of the coalition handle the BVR combat.


    81 units (more than half of Blufor) with 10 Prototypes for a 12% Prototype deck (fewer than average, fewer than all of the DLC nations). Somewhere in the region of 30 new models are required and a whole chunk of skinning work.

    Overall Belgium is about Canada level, I think. Some decent units but a paucity of good tanks and helicopters drags them down. This list is far from perfect or final so just pipe up if you have thoughts, especially about Luxembourg. I don't know a damn thing about Luxembourg and neither, it seems, does anyone else.


    The mirage 5BA MIRSIP would be a great jet I also believe the mirage 5BA got ECM chaff and flares in the 80s

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    Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

    Postby FrangibleCover » Sun 26 Feb 2017 22:59

    Vulcan 607 wrote:
    FrangibleCover wrote:
    • Mirage 5BA - 0% ECM. Twin DEFA 552s, 12x Mk.82, 2x AIM-9F.
    • Mirage 5BA RAPPORT II - 20% ECM. Twin DEFA 552s, Some BL.775s, 2x AIM-9F. RAPPORT II programme added AN/ALQ-178(V)2 RWR and DECM.

    The mirage 5BA MIRSIP would be a great jet I also believe the mirage 5BA got ECM chaff and flares in the 80s

    Good thinking, I'm not sure what to arm the MirSIP with though. It doesn't look like it got any further weaponry so really it's iron, clusters or SNEBs, which is a terrible waste of a prototype. I got the ECM/RWR improvements in the 80s but I didn't catch the chaff/flares, thanks!
    "AVRE is not flamethrower, is arsehole tank" - Alexis Le Dressay https://youtu.be/uZSJ5qNYT6E?t=11m14s
    [Non-included Nation] Belgium - Now with prototype selection Strawpoll http://www.strawpoll.me/12620699
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    Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

    Postby FrangibleCover » Mon 27 Feb 2017 17:21

    Okay, post updated with half a dozen new units, mostly to better represent Luxembourg in Category games. I've also had a stab at an air tab which I'm sure will be
    Xeno426 wrote:incorrect
    :D

    Belgium has plenty of options for coalitions, not counting Luxembourg. It's officially part of Eurocorps, was stiffened by British armoured units in Germany and is part of the Low Countries alongside the Netherlands. All of these nations have advanced MRAAM fighters but, aside from France, do not have a decent 30AP ATGM aircraft so that's the role that the Belgian prototype F-16 should take.
    "AVRE is not flamethrower, is arsehole tank" - Alexis Le Dressay https://youtu.be/uZSJ5qNYT6E?t=11m14s
    [Non-included Nation] Belgium - Now with prototype selection Strawpoll http://www.strawpoll.me/12620699
    [Non-included Nation] Pakistan

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    Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

    Postby Xeno426 » Tue 28 Feb 2017 19:48

    Don't know why you have mixed AIM-9 versions on the same aircraft. Did Belgium even get the AIM-9M?

    The Mk.77 was a Navy/Marines bomb, and thus would probably not be cert'd for the USAF-origin F-16. Rather, they'd use their own fire bombs weapons (BLU-1/B, BLU-10/B, BLU-11/B, BLU-23/B, BLU-27/B, BLU-32/B, BLU-35/B, BLU-65/B). Also, the Mk.77 is a 750lb bomb, and would probably be limited to slant-two configuration on TERs, same as the other ~750lb napalm bombs.
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    Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

    Postby FrangibleCover » Tue 28 Feb 2017 20:19

    Xeno426 wrote:Don't know why you have mixed AIM-9 versions on the same aircraft. Did Belgium even get the AIM-9M?

    For the rate of fire. It struck me that no F-16 is currently really fully in the short-range dogfighter role that the F-16 was conceptually designed for. The Peace Bridge and the Dutch Block 1 both have the full AIM-9 loadout but don't have the split-fire that makes the Lazur and L-17K so good, even with worse missiles. If it's unrealistic I'll bin it but I'm really short on ideas for what to do with F-16s that's not already been done.

    I found a source on Belgium getting AIM-9Ms in 1990 but I'm afraid I've lost it again.
    The Mk.77 was a Navy/Marines bomb, and thus would probably not be cert'd for the USAF-origin F-16. Rather, they'd use their own fire bombs weapons (BLU-1/B, BLU-10/B, BLU-11/B, BLU-23/B, BLU-27/B, BLU-32/B, BLU-35/B, BLU-65/B). Also, the Mk.77 is a 750lb bomb, and would probably be limited to slant-two configuration on TERs, same as the other ~750lb napalm bombs.

    Yeah, that's just me not thinking. It's damnably difficult to find information on stocks of napalm bombs, probably because governments are reluctant to admit they have them, so I stuck something down to remind me it was napalm and then copied it straight across. I don't doubt that Belgium had some way of setting things on fire from the air and a heavy napalm bomber would fit nicely with their possible Elite pioneers and generally good anti-infantry potential but I just cannot demonstrate that they operated anything in particular. I'll switch it to, what, 4 BLU-27/b and mark that I've got no evidence for their existence yet.

    Thanks for looking over it though, I imagine it gets tiring after the first few hundred new nations.
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    Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

    Postby Xeno426 » Wed 1 Mar 2017 06:56

    FrangibleCover wrote:For the rate of fire. It struck me that no F-16 is currently really fully in the short-range dogfighter role that the F-16 was conceptually designed for. The Peace Bridge and the Dutch Block 1 both have the full AIM-9 loadout but don't have the split-fire that makes the Lazur and L-17K so good, even with worse missiles.

    Don't need to set them with different AIM-9 versions, though. Just split them up like I did with the F-16C Peace Rhine in my air forces thread.
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    Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

    Postby Grabbed_by_the_Spets » Wed 1 Mar 2017 12:32

    Eyyy, Xeno got his cool icon back!

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    Postby ST21 » Wed 1 Mar 2017 17:24

    Nice list, FC. I added a few corrections/recommandations. :D

    FrangibleCover wrote:Logistics - Nothing exciting here really.
    • AMX-13 mod.56 PC
    • Land Rover PC or Iltis PC
    • CVRT Sultan
    • Alouette Artouste - An Alouette II with the crap engine. I've banished it to the Logistics tab so that if anyone can use it effectively they will be crowned King of Wargame.
    • Équipe de Commandement - There's going to be a lot of Google French and some Dutch in this I'm afraid. Just yell at me if I'm stupid :D .
    • AMX-13 mod.56 Cargo
    • Unimog Cargo
    • H-34 or Sea King Mk.48 - Belgium never really operated large numbers of any helicopters, everything is going to have to be used somewhere
    • FOB

    Add M113A1-B-CP and/or AIFV-B-CP.


    Infantry - 15 point Mech Shock for NATO. Also some other dudes for the two deck slots you have left.
    • Karabiniers - Regulars. FAL 50.61s, an RLC-83 Blindicide with the extended range and a MAG M2
    • Karabiniers '90 - FNCs, M72A4s and a MAG M2
    • Chasseurs Ardennais - Mech Shock. FN Uzis, M72s and a FALO
    • Chasseurs Ardennais '90 - FNCs, M72A4s and a Minimi M2. Could get the PzF 3 if they really need it I suppose.
    • Paracommandos - Elite. FAL 50.63s, M72s and a FALO. Could trade either the M72s or the FALO for Handflammpatrone if the S-G stay regular.
    • Paracommandos '90 - P90s, a PzF 3 and a Minimi M2. Might be a prototype unit.
    • Sapeurs-Genie - Could be "Para Pionere" type guys instead. Armed with FN Uzis and Handflammpatrone (A disposable phosphorus grenade projector)
    • MILAN Équipe - Regular. FAL 50.61s and a MILAN
    • MILAN 2 Équipe - Did they operate MILAN 2? If so, FNCs and a Milan 2.
    • Mistral Équipe - FNCs and a Mistral

    Tanks - I can't name this section 'Armour' with a straight face.
    • CVRT Scorpion Light Tank - This name might actually be longer than the vehicle, any suggestions?
    • M41
    • M47
    • Leopard 1BE
    • Leopard 1BE AVLS
    • Leopard 1A5(BE) - Prototype. This seems like a good time to point out that the Finnish mega-ammo came from Belgium and therefore there might be some rather nice options for this old gun.
    • Leopard 1A6(BE) - Even Prototyper.

    No high-end tanks indeed but maybe give them a boost in veterancy to compensate. Belgian tankers had a great reputation within NATO during the CW. They tended to perform very well at the famed Canadian Army Trophy tank competition.

    Recon - All the options are pretty light but I refuse to bend to the recon tank meta and add a 1BE Reco for the sake of it.
    • Iltis [⚯]
    • FN 4RM/62F ABC ⚯ - The C is for Cannon, a 90mm one at that
    • AS-24 [|⚯|] - A motorised trike used by the Paracommandos for airborne operations. Exceptional optics Mönkijä-alike but that reduces Finnish distinctiveness. Could be a transport for small teams and ESR-GVP instead, I guess.
    • CVRT Scimitar ⚯
    • CVRT Scorpion ⚯
    • CVRT Scorpion 90 ⚯ - Prototype. I've not got any actual evidence for this but it's a Belgian gun on a Belgian operated tank. Nigeria apparently got theirs with a Belgian OIP-5 FCS too.
    • M113A1-B-SCB [|⚯|] - Your bog-standard battlefield radar.
    • BDX 20mm - I don't know if it was ever built. I'm leaving it out for now.
    • Chasseurs-Jager [⚯] - Regular infantry, or rather Cavalry. FAL 50.61s and a Blindicide RL-100.
    • Luxembourgers [⚯] - Luxembourg supported Belgian operations in NATO with small numbers of light infantry and reconnaissance assets. These guys are shock rated because of reasons. FALs, M72s and a MAG.
    • Luxembourgers '90 [⚯] - AUGs, M72A4s and an AUG HBAR.
    • ESR-GVP [⚯] - Elite Snipers. FAL 50.64s, M72s and a Model 30-11 rifle.
    • Alouette Astazou [⚯] - Like the CV but with a better engine.

    Add A109HO (with FZ LAU-68 rocket pods) observation and recon chopper. Entered service in 1992 so isnt out of timeframe.

    Support - Pretty decent AA lineup actually. Generally plenty of options.
    • M42 Duster - Could be a vehicle. Never operated by Belgium.
    • Gepard
    • Unimog Mistral - Prototype. Exactly what it sounds like.
    • SANTAL - Prototype. With thanks to Hansbroger's Force Legere. This is a 6 shot Mistral launcher on either a VAB or a Sagaie. I don't know what Belgium intended to use it on and if we can't find out I vote we wedge it on a 4RM/62F chassis. Could replace the Unimog entirely.
    • Berliet Roland IIS - Prototype from the same source. An IR Roland II on a truck with 4 ready missiles.
    • HAWK
    • I-HAWK
    • I-HAWK PIP-II
    • FN 4RM/62F AB MiMo - This one has a 60mm breech-loading mortar. I'd consider this for the vehicle section too.
    • BDX 81mm - 13 built for the Gendarmerie. Remind me never to go rioting in Belgium :lol:.
    • AMX-13 mod.56 Mor - 81mm mortar in the back of a VCI
    • M113A1-B-Mor - 107mm variant
    • M108
    • M109
    • M109A2
    • M109A4BE
    • M110
    • M110A2

    Add MGM-52 Lance.

    Vehicles - Weaponized Optimism
    • Jagdpanzer Kanone
    • Jeep ENTAC
    • Land Rover Milan - In UK service this only had Milan 2 Maybe change to Iltis MILAN?
    • Land Rover TOW - Luxembourg had some TOW vehicles
    • HMMWV TOW-2 - LUXEMBOURG STRONG!
    • AMX-13 mod.56 ENTAC
    • M113-B-MIL - Yet another of ANZAC's unique units stolen :cry:
    • AIFV-B-MILAN - I'd give the poor bugger a Milan 2 if possible
    • CVRT Striker
    • CVRT Striker SWIG - Prototype. Yeah, the UK doesn't get it, I know.

    Two Belgian prototype units to consider adding:

    1. The SIBMAS, a wheeled IFV that could be armed with a Belgian-made Cockerill Mk.III 90mm gun:
    Image

    2. The ACEC Cobra, an interesting APC with electric transmission instead of mechanical. Had promising performances but sadly never got any orders due to the end of the Cold War. One of the most interesting variants of the Cobra was the AFV version fitted with a Cockerill 90mm gun:
    Image

    Interestingly, a MLRS version of the Cobra fitted with a FZ LAU-97 rocket system was also tested in 1985 but i cant find any pics of it.

    Both SIBMAS and Cobra were evaluated by the Belgian military but eventually not adopted.


    Transports - Anyone want a BTR-70? No? How about a 5 point 3 FAV transport for those 15 point shock squads?
    • AMX-13 mod.56 VTT
    • M113A1-B-ATK
    • AIFV-B-.50
    • AIFV-B-C25
    • Land Rover - Slower Humvee clone armed with a MAG. Suitable for Luxembourgers and as a ground transport for Paracommandos.
    • BDX - I'd use the turreted Air Force variant with 2x MGs. The Gendarmerie one is more likely to be found at the front but it's unarmed. Obviously, technically this should be a militia or recon transport but Belgium is short on wheels without it.
    • Pandur I - Prototype. I'm going to go weird here and equip the Pandur with another Prototype system: The FN BRG-15, a weapon similar to the KPVT. This is one of those choices that's better for flavour than gameplay though.
    • CVRT Spartan - Could either be used as a recon transport or as a small team transport like a ground version of the Yugoslav Gazelle.
    • H-34 or Sea King Mk.48 - Belgium never really operated large numbers of any helicopters, everything is going to have to be used somewhere
    • SA.330 - Belgium had 3 Pumas and really need all the airlift they can get
    • A109BA - Prototype
    • Unimog - The standard truck transport
    • HMMWV ⚯ - A recon transport for Luxembourg!

    Helicopters - Pretty thin fare in here. I suppose you don't need much vertical lift in a country that flat.
    • Alouette III SS-11 - We already have the model and Belgium had a handful of IIIs Change to Alouette II instead. Adding SS-11 to Alouette II was studied back in the day but not implemented. Alouette III with SS-11 would be too much of a stretch IMO since they are naval helos in Belgian service.
    • Alouette Roquettes - I assume Eugen knows something about this unit?
    • A109HA - Prototype. Really should have 4x TOW-2A, I'd settle for TOW-2 if necessary.

    Maybe add A109HA gunship with FN HMP .50 gun pods or FN RMP rocket/0.50 gun pods:

    Image
    A109 with HMP

    Aircraft - Pretty decent. I'm still figuring loadouts out.
    • SABCA F-104G - 0% ECM. M61A1, 4x AIM-9F (apparently the Belgians got some German production). Change to AIM-9J/N? From mid-70s, AIM-9J/N was the primary AAM of BAF F-104s.
    • SABCA F-16A-1 - 20% ECM. M61A1, 2x Mk.84, 2x AIM-9F. Change to AIM-9J/N. Never heard of BAF F-16s using AIM-9F.
    • SABCA F-16A-5 - 20% ECM. M61A1, 4x AIM-9L, 2x AIM-9F.
    • SABCA F-16A-10 - 20% ECM. M61A1, 4x BLU-27/b, 2x AIM-9L. - I can't actually find evidence of Belgian napalm use but I think a napalm bomber would fit well with the rest of the deck. The aircraft is real though, so it's available if we need another loadout.
      Belgian AF used BLU-1/B napalm bombs on F-84F, F-104G and Mirage 5BA. Doubt they were ever used on F-16s though. Mirage 5BAs also used French-made napalm bombs but cant remember the name.
    • SABCA F-16A-15 - 20% ECM. M61A1, 4x AIM-9M, 2x AIM-9L.
    • SABCA F-16A-15OCU - 30% ECM Prototype. M61A1, 2x AGM-65G, 4x AIM-9M. F-16A Block 15OCU were already AMRAAM capable when delivered back in the late 80s. Maybe add AMRAAMs? However, Belgium didnt procure the missiles until the mid/late 90s so maybe a bit out of timeframe...
    • Mirage 5BA - 0% ECM. Twin DEFA 552s, 12x Mk.82, 2x AIM-9F.
    • Mirage 5BA RAPPORT II - 30% ECM. Twin DEFA 552s, 5x BL.775s, 2x AIM-9F. RAPPORT II programme added AN/ALQ-178(V)2 RWR and DECM as well as countermeasure dispensers. The number of bombs is a guess, it could carry at least 2 and the Mirage IIIEE could carry 5 Mk.83s. I hear the Mirage 5BA never got the increased number of pylons so the aircraft are comparable. Should carry AIM-9J/N at this point (early 80s).
    • Mirage 5BA MirSIP - Prototype, first flight in '93 but in service by 1995. Includes a whole slew of upgrades that are irrelevant in Wargame and canards. I don't know what to arm it with and I'd prefer to fill the F-16s out properly first before we get a prototype in.
    • Alpha Jet B1 - 0% ECM. BK-27, 36x SNEBs. Change to LAU-3A rocket pods. SNEB was never in Belgian service. Change to 20mm gun pod instead of BK-27 too.

    Why no F-16 MLU with AMRAAMs? A bit out of timeframe but Norway, Denmark and the Netherlands already have it so...

    Last edited by ST21 on Wed 1 Mar 2017 18:36, edited 5 times in total.

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