[Non-included nation] BELGIUM

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ST21
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Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

Postby ST21 » Mon 6 Mar 2017 01:59

FrangibleCover wrote:It is different from the current F-16s but it's not different from this one:
Pakistan had the AS.30L and Magic IIs on its F-16s by the late 1980s so I'd prefer to reserve the loadout for them. Note that I've specified the Maverick G, which would actually make the aircraft quite a lot more like the F/A-18C Hornet than any of the current ATGM F-16s. It's an interesting piece though, I'd certainly be considering the Magics for flavour if the AIM-9M hadn't been delivered.


Hmm. I would be very surprised if Pakistan is ever added to the game but on the other hand i have been wrong before. :lol: (still baffled they added Israel since it doesnt fit in the whole Blue vs Red dynamic). So yeah, maybe let them have the French-armed F-16.

You've not actually said anything about it but are you okay with the infantry unit names? They're really pretty difficult to pick if you're not immersed in the country culturally.


They seem fine to me. :) Only exception perhaps is "Sapeurs-Genie". Never heard that term within the Belgian military. "Gevechtsgenie" (or "Genie de Combat" in French) would be more accurate but i think you should just use the English translation which is "Combat Engineers".

Btw, i didnt notice it at first but i just saw you wondered in your original list if MILAN 2 was in use. Well, yes it was. :)


Two more possible units that came to mind:

M992 VBCL:

Image
Former M108 howitzer converted to mobile command post. Armed with a .50 MG.

MAN quad .50 gun truck:

Image
Were used by second-line units like logistic battalions to provide some limited AA protection. Were still in service as late as 1989. Could be a cheap anti-helicopter alternative to the Gepard.
Last edited by ST21 on Mon 6 Mar 2017 16:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

Postby FrangibleCover » Mon 6 Mar 2017 02:58

ST21 wrote:
FrangibleCover wrote:It is different from the current F-16s but it's not different from this one:
Pakistan had the AS.30L and Magic IIs on its F-16s by the late 1980s so I'd prefer to reserve the loadout for them. Note that I've specified the Maverick G, which would actually make the aircraft quite a lot more like the F/A-18C Hornet than any of the current ATGM F-16s. It's an interesting piece though, I'd certainly be considering the Magics for flavour if the AIM-9M hadn't been delivered.

Hmm. I would be very surprised if Pakistan is ever added to the game but on the other hand i have been wrong before. :lol: (still baffled they added Israel since it doesnt fit in the whole Blue vs Red dynamic). So yeah, maybe let them have the French-armed F-16.

Pakistan is an absolutely terrible fit for Wargame, it makes no sense in the Blue/Red dynamic because it's almost defined militarily by its opposition to India, which is an obvious Redfor nation, but the only really sensible coalition option is China :? . Regardless, the Mav G is a good missile and it's not the same as any other aircraft.

You've not actually said anything about it but are you okay with the infantry unit names? They're really pretty difficult to pick if you're not immersed in the country culturally.

They seem fine to me. :) Only exception perhaps is "Sapeurs-Genie". Never heard that term within the Belgian military. "Gevechtsgenie" (or "Genie de Combat" in French) would be more accurate but i think you should just use the English translation which is "Combat Engineers".

Btw, i didnt notice it at first but i just saw you wondered in your original list if MILAN 2 was in use. Well, yes it was. :)

Excellent, I'll take Gevechtsgenie since the French side of Belgium gets all of the other specialist teams. I'm trying to keep language representation relatively equal although at the moment it's shading a little French overall. I think I came up with the Sapeurs-Genie at the same time as I was doing the ESR-GVP and copied the style like I did for the Chasseurs a Cheval and Jagers te Paard combo unit.

Two more possible units that came to mind:

M992 VBCL:
Former M108 howitzer converted to mobile command post. Armed with a .50 MG.

MAN quad .50 truck:
Were used by second-line units like logistic battalions to provide some limited AA protection. Were still in service as late as 1989. Could be a cheap anti-helicopter alternative to the Gepard.

Excellent, neither are the most tactically exciting options but they're both quite interesting. Unfortunately I'm seeing the M992 as being a post 1991 unit and for a half-armoured CV that would function as a worse version of the AMX PC I don't think it's worth it. You'll also note that I've brought the AS-24 into the main list because it's just too cool not to use.
[Non-included Nation] Belgium - Spreadsheet
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[Non-included Nation] Pakistan

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Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

Postby ST21 » Mon 6 Mar 2017 18:25

FrangibleCover wrote:You'll also note that I've brought the AS-24 into the main list because it's just too cool not to use.


Hell yeah! 8-) Pretty funny-looking vehicle tbh. Its just so kawaii. :mrgreen:

Btw, i was thinking about the Helicopters tab during my lunch break (lol) and i think it needs to be slighty changed.

FrangibleCover wrote:Helicopters - Pretty thin fare in here. I suppose you don't need much vertical lift in a country that flat.
  • Alouette II SS-11 - Trialed, this is one of those prototypes so bad it's not worth prototyping.
  • Alouette II Roquettes - I assume Eugen knows something about this unit? No such things as rocket-armed Alouette IIs in Belgian service. It wasnt even tested to my knowledge. I suggest changing to A109 with 2x FZ231 rocket pods (24x FFARs). It would be more realistic since, unlike Alouette II, Belgian A109s actually use rockets (from FZ):

    Image
    Image
  • A109HA - Prototype. Really should have 4x TOW-2A, I'd settle for TOW-2 if necessary. Slight correction: A109HA can carry up to 8x TOW-2As (2x quad launchers like on the Lynx AH7 TOW). It is the only decent anti-tank helicopter in the Belgian deck so lets make it as capable as possible, mkay?^^


Also i think the A109 needs to be dropped from the transport list. While the A109 is sometimes used to carry small SF teams, it can hardly be considered a transport helicopter by any stretch of the imagination. Its just too limited in that role.

Just my 2 cents. ;)

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Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

Postby FrangibleCover » Mon 6 Mar 2017 19:38

ST21 wrote:No such things as rocket-armed Alouette IIs in Belgian service. It wast even tested to my knowledge. I suggest changing to A109 with 2x FZ231 rocket pods (24x FFARs). It would be more realistic since, unlike Alouette II, Belgian A109s actually use rockets (from FZ):
Image
Slight correction: A109HA can carry up to 8x TOW-2As (2x quad launchers like on the Lynx AH7 TOW). It is the only decent anti-tank helicopter in the Belgian deck so lets make it as capable as possible, mkay?^^

Counterproposal: How about a single A109HA with quad TOWs on one pylon and the 12 round FFAR pod on the other? 8 TOWs is expensive in availability and price, you're only going to get one card of these things and I feel like you can't really afford to lose all of them. The rockets make it more flexible for the opening and it's a more traditional gunship combo than the Dutch Apaches and therefore the separate variants aren't just outshone by them in coalition.

Also i think the A109 needs to be dropped from the transport list. While the A109 is sometimes used to carry small SF teams, it can hardly be considered a transport helicopter by any stretch of the imagination. Its just too limited in that role.

Yeah, I always forget just how much smaller than a Lynx they are. I'll put it in the reserve list since it's not going to be the worst clown car in the game and Belgian air lift is not exactly good. Alternatively they could be like the Yugo Gazelle as a small team transport and they could probably justify a transport rocket loadout.

Just to check, are we talking about FFARs or special FZ upgraded FFARs? The FZ website is talking about these things http://fz.be/products.php?p=24 , which look very much like Hydra 70s, with the stats boost that would imply, but they might be out of time frame. The FZ68 seems like a pretty marginal upgrade over the FFAR. Furthermore, should the Alpha Jet be using basic FFARs or FZ67s?
[Non-included Nation] Belgium - Spreadsheet
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[Non-included Nation] Pakistan

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Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

Postby ST21 » Tue 7 Mar 2017 00:28

FrangibleCover" wrote:Counterproposal: How about a single A109HA with quad TOWs on one pylon and the 12 round FFAR pod on the other? 8 TOWs is expensive in availability and price, you're only going to get one card of these things and I feel like you can't really afford to lose all of them. The rockets make it more flexible for the opening and it's a more traditional gunship combo than the Dutch Apaches and therefore the separate variants aren't just outshone by them in coalition.


Its an interesting proposal but i am not sure that A109HAs can use mixed loads. I have certainly never see one with a mix of TOWs and rockets. But maybe its possible, who knows. I like the versatility this loadout would provide but on the other hand, i think Belgium needs a good dedicated AT heli to deal with high-end tanks. A bit on the fence with this. :|

Yeah, I always forget just how much smaller than a Lynx they are. I'll put it in the reserve list since it's not going to be the worst clown car in the game and Belgian air lift is not exactly good. Alternatively they could be like the Yugo Gazelle as a small team transport and they could probably justify a transport rocket loadout.


Yeah, maybe use the A109 as a battle taxi for ESR-GVP. They are able to transport a small SF/sniper team but carrying a whole squad of grunts with Blindicides and GPMGs? No way, that would be unrealistic.

Just to check, are we talking about FFARs or special FZ upgraded FFARs? The FZ website is talking about these things http://fz.be/products.php?p=24 , which look very much like Hydra 70s, with the stats boost that would imply, but they might be out of time frame. The FZ68 seems like a pretty marginal upgrade over the FFAR. Furthermore, should the Alpha Jet be using basic FFARs or FZ67s?


I was talking about basic FFARs since i didnt know the FZ90 until you mentioned it. :P Interesting. According to FZ's own website, FZ90 was developed in 1993-94 so a bit OOTF. But not by that much. :mrgreen:

Regarding Alpha Jets, they should have basic FFARs since they just used the stock of Vietnam-vintage LAU-3/A rocket pods previously acquired for F-104Gs.

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Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

Postby freeman1986 » Wed 22 Mar 2017 15:39

Hi everybody,

I'am a belgian soldier since 10 years.

I'will try to submit you a realistic deck with existing units on the game.
I have a very good knowledge about the belgian units/weapons/...

Find in these website a lot of informations about the army. (In french)

http://www.mil.be/fr/material-type/avia ... licopteres
http://www.mil.be/fr/material-type/flotte
http://www.mil.be/fr/material-type/vehicules
http://www.mil.be/fr/material-type/armement

Not in use but ready to deploy in case of war :
Leopard 1A5
Agusta A109 BA Hirundo
M109/MO120 RT
Guepard

No Napalm and any infantry AA

Very experienced and effective infantry like the Chasseurs Ardennais, 1/3L, Grenadier, ...
Infantry of shock like para-commando troopers and the 12/13 Li of Spa.
A para-commando recce team.
The Belgian SF Group is like SAS but no AA weapons : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_F ... p_(Belgium)
The SF operator are always on operation, so they have a very good experience.

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Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

Postby FrangibleCover » Wed 22 Mar 2017 16:37

freeman1986 wrote:Hi everybody,

I'am a belgian soldier since 10 years.

I'will try to submit you a realistic deck with existing units on the game.
I have a very good knowledge about the belgian units/weapons/...

Find in these website a lot of informations about the army. (In french)

http://www.mil.be/fr/material-type/avia ... licopteres
http://www.mil.be/fr/material-type/flotte
http://www.mil.be/fr/material-type/vehicules
http://www.mil.be/fr/material-type/armement

Not in use but ready to deploy in case of war :
Leopard 1A5
Agusta A109 BA Hirundo
M109/MO120 RT
Guepard

No Napalm and any infantry AA

Very experienced and effective infantry like the Chasseurs Ardennais, 1/3L, Grenadier, ...
Infantry of shock like para-commando troopers and the 12/13 Li of Spa.
A para-commando recce team.
The Belgian SF Group is like SAS but no AA weapons : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_F ... p_(Belgium)
The SF operator are always on operation, so they have a very good experience.

Hi there!

I've got a running list back on page 4 (newly updated) that represents the Belgian Armed Forces in 1991, you can look through it here: viewtopic.php?f=104&t=44781&start=30#p1024454
I'm gratified to see that some of my choices line up with those made by an actual Belgian service member :D . The others can mostly be explained by the differences in time frame.

The SFG are undoubtedly capable and in my list they are partially represented by the Paracommandos, who are modelled as Elite infantry of the line, giving them identical stats to SFG with the same equipment (note their P90s like the SFG used in Iraq). The recon role of the SFG is partially represented by the ESR-GVP in their infantry recon role and partially represented by the AS-24 Airborne Trike, which gets exceptional optics to represent its Special Forces crew, like the Perenties or the UAZ Plamya.

It's always difficult to justify which units should be shock and which should be line, I picked the Chasseurs Ardennais as the shock infantry because they would be mechanised and I rather like the name and then left the rest of the infantry as generic 'Karabiniers' but if there's a different mechanised unit that would be more deserving of the shock rating please suggest it. Am I right in interpreting that the 12th would be a shock Light Infantry unit (and is there a good nickname for them)? If so I think they could be quite interesting with FALs, an RLC-83 and a FALO; a quick and cheap unit that has the traditional range advantage of Light Infantry in Wargame.

Feel free to contribute anything you think is missing, the Belgian army of the 1980s is not exactly my specialist subject.
[Non-included Nation] Belgium - Spreadsheet
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[Non-included Nation] Pakistan

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Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

Postby ST21 » Wed 22 Mar 2017 17:34

SFG is a post-Cold War unit (created in 2000 IIRC) so no point in adding them. They are basically the descendants of ESR/GVP that was disbanded in '94 (a very short sighted decision...).

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Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

Postby Mike » Wed 22 Mar 2017 18:50

Solider since ten years? They start 'em young over there!
Image
Courtesy of KattiValk

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Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

Postby freeman1986 » Wed 22 Mar 2017 23:37

FrangibleCover wrote:
freeman1986 wrote:Hi everybody,

I'am a belgian soldier since 10 years.

I'will try to submit you a realistic deck with existing units on the game.
I have a very good knowledge about the belgian units/weapons/...

Find in these website a lot of informations about the army. (In french)

http://www.mil.be/fr/material-type/avia ... licopteres
http://www.mil.be/fr/material-type/flotte
http://www.mil.be/fr/material-type/vehicules
http://www.mil.be/fr/material-type/armement

Not in use but ready to deploy in case of war :
Leopard 1A5
Agusta A109 BA Hirundo
M109/MO120 RT
Guepard

No Napalm and any infantry AA

Very experienced and effective infantry like the Chasseurs Ardennais, 1/3L, Grenadier, ...
Infantry of shock like para-commando troopers and the 12/13 Li of Spa.
A para-commando recce team.
The Belgian SF Group is like SAS but no AA weapons : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_F ... p_(Belgium)
The SF operator are always on operation, so they have a very good experience.

Hi there!

I've got a running list back on page 4 (newly updated) that represents the Belgian Armed Forces in 1991, you can look through it here: viewtopic.php?f=104&t=44781&start=30#p1024454
I'm gratified to see that some of my choices line up with those made by an actual Belgian service member :D . The others can mostly be explained by the differences in time frame.

The SFG are undoubtedly capable and in my list they are partially represented by the Paracommandos, who are modelled as Elite infantry of the line, giving them identical stats to SFG with the same equipment (note their P90s like the SFG used in Iraq). The recon role of the SFG is partially represented by the ESR-GVP in their infantry recon role and partially represented by the AS-24 Airborne Trike, which gets exceptional optics to represent its Special Forces crew, like the Perenties or the UAZ Plamya.

It's always difficult to justify which units should be shock and which should be line, I picked the Chasseurs Ardennais as the shock infantry because they would be mechanised and I rather like the name and then left the rest of the infantry as generic 'Karabiniers' but if there's a different mechanised unit that would be more deserving of the shock rating please suggest it. Am I right in interpreting that the 12th would be a shock Light Infantry unit (and is there a good nickname for them)? If so I think they could be quite interesting with FALs, an RLC-83 and a FALO; a quick and cheap unit that has the traditional range advantage of Light Infantry in Wargame.

Feel free to contribute anything you think is missing, the Belgian army of the 1980s is not exactly my specialist subject.


Hi,

Sorry but I will reply you tomorrow because I have no more time this night.
I created a deck : @HsEbU7R7yPS9R7yPUyw6yPSDkFqdo95ssTw2WJ4jJ00Rk6aEChCido96CGTbBDJtjtnvMSgc47Z7wfuX2Ew5MORGlDRIMhvt3qFER5EeRH4R+IERT4X5F98RukgJBoA=

This deck is for the actual army. But the Fal is not in use. We use the FNC, F2000 and the SCAR. P-90 is for MOUNT (into building) or for the driver of medical Component,... not for infantry.

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