[Non-included nation] BELGIUM

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Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

Postby Sevatar » Mon 12 May 2014 20:30

:o Woppedo!
Tres Chic as those:

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and

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Gotta love vehicles like that. ;)

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FrangibleCover
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Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

Postby FrangibleCover » Sun 26 Feb 2017 19:19

ST21 and FrangibleCover present:

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BELGIUM in Wargame
and also Luxembourg

Access and comment upon the Spreadsheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Why Belgium?
In a hypothetical future New Nation vote, Belgium is the conservative option. Belgium is reasonably good on its own merits, a core NATO member with history in expeditionary fighting and generally has prototypes that are more flavourful than powerful. I'd estimate Belgium to be roughly Canada-tier, a good coalition partner for nations that can bring the tanks but individually noncompetitive in top-tier srs bsns play.

Isn't it just going to be another cookie-cutter NATO nation?
Read on and find out. Belgium provides a few entirely new units and some interesting spins on old concepts. It's not going to be as unique as South Africa but it's better off than Denmark.

A little history
Spoiler : :
Caesar's histories of his campaigns in Gaul mentioned the Belgae tribe, a fierce ... Okay, I'll skip a bit.

After the end of the Second World War, Belgium was one of the founding nations of NATO and hosts both its headquarters in Brussels and its most important command centre at Casteau, near Mons. Luxembourg was also a founding nation and, possibly as a joke, is the point of registration for all of NATO's AWACS in spite of having no other air force. 1st Belgian Corps was on the front line in Germany, having responsibility for Cologne and a strip running from the Belgian to the East German border. Luxembourg was to bring a Light Infantry battalion in trucks, with recon and ATGM support, to bolster Belgian forces. Belgium's elite Paracommandos battalions and some Luxembourgish units were also a part of the Allied Command Europe Mobile Force, often referred to as ACE Mobile Force or AMF, which was a formation of rapidly deployable units intended to rapidly bolster either the North of NATO in Scandinavia through AMF-North or the South of NATO in Italy or the Balkans through AMF-South. Belgium and Luxembourg both deployed forces to Korea during the first war, Luxembourg sending 10% of its entire military establishment and losing a third of them in combat. Belgium also conducted airborne operations in a mostly successful joint US-Belgian intervention in the Congo to free a large number of hostages in 1964. Belgium and Luxembourg are the last remaining members of NATO Forces Germany that are not represented in the game and were perfectly ready for and capable of direct intervention anywhere in the world.

Belgium also has an advanced arms industry. Fabrique Nationale de Herstal, better known as FN, are among the world's foremost small arms manufacturers and produce or design the small arms for roughly half of the NATO infantry in game, having also dabbled in light vehicles. Cockerill and MECAR are in the guns business too, specialising in 90mm weapons with surprisingly small form factors. ACEC and Beherman Demoen make AFVs, PRB worked with Gerald Bull on long-range artillery, SABCA build and upgrade aircraft and produce Fire Control Systems and Forges de Zeebrugge produce improved FFARs and MRLs.

Some cool units
Spoiler : :
Fusiliers d'Assaut
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I'll admit up front that Belgium's infantry AT options are poor. The indigenously produced Blindicides are roughly base RPG-7 equivalents and the M72 is as useless as its always been. Furthermore, there is a requirement for all nations to have a shock squad and Belgium is in the awkward position of having its Paratroopers and its Marines as the same, inseparable unit, who are definitely Elite due to their mixed descent from the SAS and Royal Marines Commando. It is therefore with no alternative and a heavy heart that I must present the Fusiliers d'Assaut, NATO's first 15 point shock unit, equipped with FN FALs, M72 LAWs and an FN MAG :twisted:. This is balanced out by Belgium having no '90s shock option, meaning that they will struggle against FSVs and close support armour.

Paracommandos
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The Paracommandos are the elite heart of Belgian military capability and, as such, are represented in three different forms. Basic Paracommandos are close-quarters brawlers, equipped with folding-stock carbine FALs, M72s and the fearsome DM34 Handflammpatrone flame launcher. Paracommandos '90 are Belgium's best hope against armour in close quarters, wielding the prototype APILAS in conjunction with carbine FNCs and a Minimi Para. Category decks are bolstered by the 5 man ATk Paracommandos, representing the Paracommando Anti-Tank units and are equipped doctrinally correctly with FALs, a MILAN launcher and an early-issue Minimi M1.

Land Rover LAU-97
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An export product from Forges de Zeebrugge, the LAU-97 is a modular 40 shot multiple rocket launcher designed to fire standard NATO 70mm FFARs. It has a maximum range of 8km when using FZ's special upgraded FFARs, about the same as a mortar, and is aimed with mortar equipment. Therefore, I propose that the LAU-97 become an MRL-mortar, with good aim time but poor HE damage. It also needn't fire its whole ammunition supply in one go, having two 20 shot or four 10 shot volleys could be much more useful. The system could have been mounted on the back of a Land Rover, a Unimog or an ACEC Cobra in Belgian service but the only installations we have pictures of are on VLRAs, Pinzgauers and this Land Rover.

Roland IIS and Gepard B2LV
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The Roland IIS was offered to Belgium in 1979 and consists of a Roland 2 with four ready missiles on the back of a truck. The integrated search radar was not to be included on the Belgian system and therefore this is the IR Roland that has been sought for so long.
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When Belgium acquired the Gepard it separately designated those with laser rangefinders as the Gepard B2LV and those without as the Gepard B2. As a result, Belgium can justify both [RAD] and non-[RAD] Gepards. Why am I being so mean to German players? Because this way if they select the Belgian-German coalition they can get the Grossdeutschland they always wanted, with HAWKs too.

Poudreries Réunies de Belgique
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Base-bleed technology was developed by Sweden, but the rights were sold to PRB in the early 1970s and passed on to Gerald Bull's famous Space Research Corporation (it's a little unclear to me which of the two companies were subsidiary to the other) to combine with their Extended Range Full Bore shell into ERFB/BB. Bull then sold guns and technology to South Africa and was arrested and imprisoned for it, making him about the unluckiest man in the universe. Vowing never to return to Canada or the US he set up shop in Brussels in the early 1980s and worked on EFRB/BB shells and Saddam Hussein's Tel-Aviv-flattening Supergun until he was assassinated by an unknown party in 1990 (Hint, it was totally Mossad). PRB marketed EFRB/BB shells with HE, Smoke and DPICM payloads until they went bankrupt in 1990 and GIAT bought them out.

Belgium was the last user of the M108 in Germany and so have it as their Cat-C howitzer but the M109A2BE provides a workable 30 second howitzer in Cat-B and above. PRB get their look in with the M109A3BE, an M109BE upgraded to M109A2 standard and equipped with ERFB/BB DPICM-cluster rounds and smoke rounds. The gun will have 32500m range but the FCS is unupgraded and the Base-bleed system reduces payload, giving the gun 6HE equivalent smoke and only 3 or 4 AP cluster.

Leopard 1BE series
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Belgium purchased its Leopard 1BEs in 1967 and gave them the SABCA AVLS FCS (already in game on the Leopard C1) from the late 1970s into the early 80s to create the Leopard 1A2BE. Unfortunately only got around to planning the first armour upgrade in 1984 and building prototypes in 1988. There were two upgrade programmes, firstly the Leopard 1A5BE with what appear to be composite side-skirts and an advanced SABCA FCS equivalent to the one on the German Leopard 1A5. The more interesting programme, pictured, is the Leopard 1A6BE, a 1A5BE with MEXAS armour on the turret. In the end the Peace Dividend killed the 1A6 programme and the 1A5 entered service in 1992, at the same time as the 1A6 would have. Rounding out the Belgian Leopards, the Leopard 1BE SCT is an alternative designation for the 1A2 that will be used to represent the rumoured early acquisition of the side skirts for the Leopard 1A5BE and provide an upgunned and marginally uparmoured Cat B or A tank for Belgium.

4RM/62F series
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The FN 4RM/62F series was a Belgian attempt to confuse and demoralise amateur historians of the Belgian army. They were a pair of light armoured cars, designed in the 1970s, that were very similar to the AML-60 and AML-90 but based on an FN truck chassis. The ⚯ 4RM/62F ABC (Auto-Blindée Canon) is a brave attempt at a 90mm gun based recon vehicle, somewhat let down by the actual gun which is an ancient MECAR 90/28 that was first mounted on Bren Gun Carriers in the 1950s.
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The other variant, the 4RM/62F AB MiMo (Auto-Blindée Mitrailleuse Mortier) was armed with the same 60mm Brandt gun-mortar that is so beloved on the base AML-60, along with a pair of coaxial MGs that won't be modeled in Wargame. Both variants come with an optional pintle-mounted MAG which will be used to try to give them some semblance of a role in game.

[|⚯|] AS-24
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Another of FN's brilliant ideas, the AS-24 is a four seat folding motortrike for use by Paracommandos. It is quite, quite mad but it saw active service during Operation Dragon Rouge in Congo and seems to have been a fairly popular vehicle. The [|⚯|] AS-24 will be represented like the Monkija, as an unarmed stealthy low-health jeep, but thanks to its operation by the Paracommandos it is also Belgium's elite Exceptional optics recon vehicle.

[⚯] Cobra AFV
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Ateliers de Constructions Electriques de Charleroi, as the name might suggest, were keen on electrical components and it should be no surprise that their attempt at an APC/AFV family used a specially designed electric transmission. The Cobra AFV's high mobility, Cockerill Mk.8 gun, good FCS and optional thermal sight provide Belgium with a good reconnaissance tank that is somewhat let down by its 2/1/1/1 armour and its status as a 1985 prototype preventing it from getting the Scorpion 90's 13AP ammunition. Other Cobra variants could be in the deck but don't really provide anything interesting.

[⚯] Luxembourgers/HMMWV
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Luxembourg's contribution to NATO was mainly light infantry and reconnaissance so Luxembourg's major contribution to the deck will be in the same area. Taking the cue from Green Jackets, the light infantry training of the real life unit grants Shock stats and with Belgian regular [⚯] Chasseur-Jagers covering the Cat-C side [⚯] Luxembourgers can move into their later category loadout with FALs, M72A4s and a MAG, differentiating them slightly from Green Jackets. Luxembourg acquired Humvees in 1990 and they are represented in this deck by the ⚯ HMMWV, because we all needed a Humvee recon transport in our lives, and the HMMWV TOW-2, Belgium's best ground ATGM.

M113A1-B
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Belgium's M113A1s were not quite run of the mill. License produced by Belgian Mechanical Fabrication between 1982 and 1985, the chassis and engine of the M113A1 were mated to the suspension components of the M113A2 to produce the M113A1-B-FUS and its variants. The M113A1-B-FUS/MIL was a basic Fusilier model with a MILAN mounted to it for use as a light infantry transport, but while they were produced they were never actually fitted with MILANs. The M113A1-B-Mor was equivalent to the M106, carrying the 107mm M30 chemical mortar. The most unique variant represented is the [|⚯|] M113A1-B-SCB (pictured), an M113 with an Israeli mast-mounted surveillance radar, produced in 1990 from reroled FUS/MILs.

BDX
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The BDX is an odd vehicle, not technically Belgian but Irish. It was originally developed by Timoney Technology as the Timoney Mk.V but built solely in Belgium by Beherman-Demoen. It came in three major variants, one with a twin MG turret intended for airfield defence, one with no turret for the Gendarmerie and a small run of Gendarmerie BDXs converted into 81mm mortar carriers, presumably because when they riot in Belgium they mean it. If you recognise the general shape that's because the BDX was used as the basis for the unsuccessful Vickers Valkyr and from that programme, the Vickers Mk.11 . The BDX in game will be the armed, turreted one as a transport in motorised decks.

AFSV-90 and M113-B-CSE90
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A pair of similar prototype vehicles using the same CSE-90 turret, containing a Cockerill Mk.3 gun and, again, optional thermal sights. The SIBMAS is an indigenous Belgian wheeled AFV design that was developed from the same Büssing prototype as the South African Ratel. As with the Ratel, just about anything could be bolted onto the top of a SIBMAS but the variant we're interested in is the AFSV-90 with a 90mm gun and passenger space for a squad. Development was completed in 1976 and it was offered to the Belgian government and for export to Malaysia, who purchased over 100. In 1985 Cockerill decided to have another swing at the 90mm gun IFV concept and developed the M113A1-B-CSE90, an M113A1-B fitted with a CSE90 turret that retained enough cargo space for a squad and had special flotation tanks to keep it amphibious. In game, one of these vehicles will act as a transport and the other as an FSV.

JPK 90
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The Belgian Jagdpanzer Kanone is not quite the same as the German one. Gone is the big, boxy IR searchlight, replaced by a passive IR system. Gone, too is the German FCS, replaced by the same SABCA AVLS FCS as in the Leopard C1 with a whopping 60% accuracy. The JPK 90 is not a cheap FSV like the Kanonenjagdpanzer, it is a true Tank Destroyer.

A109
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Belgium acquired the fast and agile Agusta-Westland A109 in 1992, which is a bit of a kick in the teeth because Belgium's previous helicopter options were Search and Rescue Sikorsky H-34s and Westland Sea King Mk.48s, Gendarmerie SA.330s and SE.313B and SE.3180 Alouette IIs operated for spotting purposes by the Artillery. The recon helicopter, the [⚯] A109HO, is armed with a pair of FN RMP pods that include the pictured .50 Browning installation and 6 FZ90 rockets from 1994, which have similar stats to the CRV-7. The FZ90s could be either HE or HEAT and the HeliTOW sight could grant it Very Good optics in spite of being armed.
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The transport variant of the series, the A109BA, carries 24x FZ68 upgraded FFARs, although it could be armed with other pods or a pintle-mounted MAG.
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The final variant is the most famous, the A109HA with 8x TOW-2A missiles. I concede that nobody else gets TOW-2A but it is the only TOW variant Belgium has ever operated and in my view the US and perhaps some other nations could use some TOW-2As as well. It is not my intent to create a unicorn here, I'd be perfectly happy if, for example, the redundant Danish M/113A1 TOW-2, the marginal Korean AH-1T and the pricey American M2A2 Bradley also got TOW-2A in the patch. Alternatively it could be assumed that the rush-purchase of A109s precluded getting TOW-2A and the A109HA can just fire Luxembourgish TOW-2 stocks but I feel like that's less realistic.

Mirage 5BA
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Belgium purchased the Mirage 5BA in the early 1970s and quickly concluded due to the Yom Kippur war that ECM and flares were necessary for the continued survival of aircraft in combat. The Loral RAPPORT II ECM/RWR system was procured for the Mirages in the 1970s and countermeasures dispensers were added in the early 1980s to produce the Mirage 5BA RAPPORT. The basic Mirage will be loaded with a pair of BL.775 CBUs on the centreline and 8x Mk.82s on (slightly ahistorical) RPK fuel-tank hardpoints on the wings to produce a combined cluster/HE bomber that will be highly effective in a low threat environment. The Mirage RAPPORT will be armed with four BLU-1/B napalm bombs and a pair of AIM-9Fs bought from Germany, which should combine with the good ECM to create a napalm bomber that's cheap and survivable enough to be worth using.

Alpha Jet 1B
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Belgium's Alpha Jets were an odd mix of the French and German variants, retaining the French nose but having four wing hardpoints and an RWR like the German type. They were primarily employed for training but the three squadrons also had a war role, with the instructors flying strike missions in support of 1st Belgian Corps. The Alpha Jet represented in game will be something of an odd duck, having a 30mm DEFA gun pod and 38x FFARs in a fairly standard light-attack loadout, but using the outboard pylons for 14x Smoke FFARs. This loadout is intended to allow normal use as a strike aircraft with occasional smoke delivery, a similar concept to the Smoke MRLs that are now in game. Smoke aircraft have been in the game previously, at the start of Airland Battle, but were unpopular due to their lack of utility in normal play and then their low price and high availability allowing their use as suicide AA shields.

Coalition options
Spoiler : :
Benelux
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The most obvious coalition, Belgium and Luxembourg are paired with the Netherlands due to their politico-economico-cultural union. Aside from a lack of SEAD and having only a single card of Superheavy tanks Benelux is well covered in most areas, with particular strengths in the recon and infantry tabs.
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Paracommandos and Korps Marinier on a joint exercise.
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Dutch Navy tanker refueling a pair of Belgian frigates.

However, because the Netherlands is a DLC nation there is a concern about nickel and diming of content, where a new player is forced to buy Nation Pack: Netherlands to get a complete coalition. Therefore, Belgium must come with a vanilla coalition partner as well.

ACE Mobile Force
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The AMF could justify a coalition with multiple different nations or combinations thereof: The US, Germany, the UK, Italy if included or Canada. Germany has been selected as the other coalition for a number of reasons: From a historical perspective, due to a massive shortage of Belgian transport helicopters Paracommandos were planned to ride into battle in German UH-1s and CH-53s. From a gameplay perspective Belgium fills Germany's major gaps (IR AA, good aircraft, decent recon infantry) without reducing the heavily mechanised flavour of the deck like France does in Eurocorps, producing a coalition more Germany-y than Eurocorps but not quite so redundantly Germany-y as Dutch-German Corps.
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A Paracommando on an AMF exercise, next to a helicopter that doesn't belong to him. That particular one is an Italian Agusta-produced Huey.

Doesn't that give Germany four coalitions?
This would happen as a wholesale rejig of coalitions. A UK/NL coalition should have been in the game from the start, purely thanks to the history of cooperation between the two nations. Therefore, DGC is changed to UK/NL to make room for AMF. Changing Landjut into another coalition, perhaps JAPANZAC, would also reduce the pressure on the German deck.

You do know all of this is never going to happen?
Hope springs eternal.
Last edited by FrangibleCover on Thu 11 May 2017 19:53, edited 19 times in total.
[Non-included Nation] Belgium - Spreadsheet
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Vulcan 607
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Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

Postby Vulcan 607 » Sun 26 Feb 2017 22:29

FrangibleCover wrote:Okay, I've had a bit of a look through this thread and I think as the remaining Central European NATO member (but one) Belgium deserves some consideration for the next Wargame, whenever it may be. As such, I've had a go at assembling a RD timeframe list using this thread and some other sources.

Logistics - Nothing exciting here really.
Spoiler : :
  • AMX-13 mod.56 PC
  • Land Rover PC or Iltis PC
  • CVRT Sultan
  • Alouette Artouste - An Alouette II with the crap engine. I've banished it to the Logistics tab so that if anyone can use it effectively they will be crowned King of Wargame.
  • Équipe de Commandement - There's going to be a lot of Google French and some Dutch in this I'm afraid. Just yell at me if I'm stupid :D .
  • AMX-13 mod.56 Cargo
  • Unimog Cargo
  • H-34 or Sea King Mk.48 - Belgium never really operated large numbers of any helicopters, everything is going to have to be used somewhere
  • FOB

Infantry - 15 point Mech Shock for NATO. Also some other dudes for the two deck slots you have left.
Spoiler : :
  • Karabiniers - Regulars. FAL 50.61s, an RLC-83 Blindicide with the extended range and a MAG M2
  • Karabiniers '90 - FNCs, M72A4s and a MAG M2
  • Chasseurs Ardennais - Mech Shock. FN Uzis, M72s and a FALO
  • Chasseurs Ardennais '90 - FNCs, M72A4s and a Minimi M2. Could get the PzF 3 if they really need it I suppose.
  • Paracommandos - Elite. FAL 50.63s, M72s and a FALO
  • Paracommandos '90 - P90s, a PzF 3 and a Minimi M2. Might be a prototype unit.
  • Sapeurs-Genie - Could be "Para Pionere" type guys instead. Armed with FN Uzis and Handflammpatrone (A disposable phosphorus grenade projector)
  • MILAN Équipe - Regular. FAL 50.61s and a MILAN
  • MILAN 2 Équipe - Did they operate MILAN 2? If so, FNCs and a Milan 2.
  • Mistral Équipe - FNCs and a Mistral

Tanks - I can't name this section 'Armour' with a straight face.
Spoiler : :
  • CVRT Scorpion Light Tank - This name might actually be longer than the vehicle, any suggestions?
  • M41
  • M47
  • Leopard 1BE
  • Leopard 1BE AVLS
  • Leopard 1A5(BE) - Prototype. This seems like a good time to point out that the Finnish mega-ammo came from Belgium and therefore there might be some rather nice options for this old gun.
  • Leopard 1A6(BE) - Even Prototyper.

Recon - All the options are pretty light but I refuse to bend to the recon tank meta and add a 1BE Reco for the sake of it.
Spoiler : :
  • Iltis [⚯]
  • FN 4RM/62F ABC ⚯ - The C is for Cannon, a 90mm one at that
  • CVRT Scimitar ⚯
  • CVRT Scorpion ⚯
  • CVRT Scorpion 90 ⚯ - Prototype. I've not got any actual evidence for this but it's a Belgian gun.
  • M113A1-B-SCB [|⚯|]
  • Possibly the BDX 20mm, I don't know if it was ever built. I'm leaving it out for now.
  • Chasseurs-Jager [⚯] - Regular infantry, or rather Cavalry. FAL 50.61s and a Blindicide RL-100.
  • Luxembourgers [⚯] - They're getting to go with Belgium from a lack of other ways to get them into game. Cat A Shock, just because. AUGs, M72A4s and an AUG HBAR.
  • ESR-GVP [⚯] - Elite Snipers. FAL 50.64s, M72s and a Model 30-11 rifle.
  • Alouette Astazou [⚯] - Like the CV but with a better engine.

Support - Pretty decent AA lineup actually. Generally plenty of options.
Spoiler : :
  • M42 Duster - Could be a vehicle.
  • Gepard
  • Unimog Mistral - Prototype. Exactly what it sounds like.
  • SANTAL - Prototype. With thanks to Hansbroger's Force Legere. This is a 6 shot Mistral launcher on either a VAB or a Sagaie. I don't know what Belgium intended to use it on and if we can't find out I vote we wedge it on a 4RM/62F chassis. Could replace the Unimog entirely.
  • Berliet Roland IIS - Prototype from the same source. An IR Roland II on a truck with 4 ready missiles.
  • HAWK
  • I-HAWK
  • I-HAWK PIP-II
  • FN 4RM/62F AB MiMo - This one has a 60mm breech-loading mortar. I'd consider this for the vehicle section too.
  • BDX 81mm - 13 built for the Gendarmerie. Remind me never to go rioting in Belgium :lol:.
  • AMX-13 mod.56 Mor - 81mm mortar in the back of a VCI
  • M113A1-B-Mor - 107mm variant
  • M108
  • M109
  • M109A2
  • M109A4BE
  • M110A2

Vehicles - Weaponized Optimism
Spoiler : :
  • Jagdpanzer Kanone
  • Jeep ENTAC
  • Land Rover Milan - In UK service this only had Milan 2
  • HMMWV TOW-2 - LUXEMBOURG STRONG!
  • AMX-13 mod.56 ENTAC
  • M113-B-MIL - Yet another of ANZAC's unique units stolen :cry:
  • AIFV-B-MILAN - I'd give the poor bugger a Milan 2 if possible
  • CVRT Striker
  • CVRT Striker SWIG - Prototype. Yeah, the UK doesn't get it, I know.

Transports - Anyone want a BTR-70? No? How about a 5 point 3 FAV transport for those 15 point shock squads?
Spoiler : :
  • AMX-13 mod.56 VTT
  • M113A1-B-ATK
  • AIFV-B-.50
  • AIFV-B-C25
  • BDX - I'd use the turreted Air Force variant with 2x MGs. The Gendarmerie one is more likely to be found at the front but it's unarmed. Obviously, technically this should be a militia or recon transport but Belgium is short on wheels without it.
  • Pandur I - Prototype. I'm going to go weird here and equip the Pandur with another Prototype system: The FN BRG-15, a weapon similar to the KPVT. This is one of those choices that's better for flavour than gameplay though.
  • CVRT Spartan - Could either be used as a recon transport or as a small team transport like a ground version of the Yugoslav Gazelle.
  • H-34 or Sea King Mk.48 - Belgium never really operated large numbers of any helicopters, everything is going to have to be used somewhere
  • A109BA - Prototype
  • Unimog - The standard truck transport
  • HMMWV ⚯ - A recon transport for Luxembourg!

Helicopters - Pretty thin fare in here. I suppose you don't need much vertical lift in a country that flat.
Spoiler : :
  • Alouette III SS-11 - We already have the model and Belgium had a handful of IIIs
  • Alouette Roquettes - I assume Eugen knows something about this unit?
  • A109HA - Prototype. Really should have 4x TOW-2A, I'd settle for TOW-2 if necessary.

Aircraft - Pretty decent. I'm halfway though figuring loadouts out.
Spoiler : :
  • SABCA F-104G - 0% ECM. M61A1, 4x AIM-9F (apparently the Belgians got some German production)
  • SABCA F-16A-1 - 20% ECM. I'm thinking M61A1, as many Mk77s as can be wedged on and 2x AIM-9L.
  • SABCA F-16A-5 - 20% ECM. Dunno. Maybe multiple kinds of Sidewinder like a Lazur?
  • SABCA F-16A-10 - 20% ECM. Still dunno.
  • SABCA F-16A-15 - 20% ECM. Honestly dunno.
  • SABCA F-16A-15OCU - 30% ECM Prototype. M61A1, 2x AIM-120A, 4x AIM-9M (1990 delivery of Ms). I could do with another of these to carry some Mavericks too.
  • Mirage 5BA - 0% ECM. Twin DEFA 552s, 12x Mk.82, 2x AIM-9F.
  • Mirage 5BA RAPPORT II - 20% ECM. Twin DEFA 552s, Some BL.775s, 2x AIM-9F. RAPPORT II programme added AN/ALQ-178(V)2 RWR and DECM.
  • Alpha Jet B1 - 0% ECM. BK-27, 36x SNEBs.
Alternatively
  • SABCA F-16A-15 - 20% ECM. M61A1, 4x AIM-9M, 2x AIM-9L.
  • SABCA F-16A-15OCU - 30% ECM Prototype. M61A1, 2x AGM-65G, 4x AIM-9M.
    and let the rest of the coalition handle the BVR combat.


81 units (more than half of Blufor) with 10 Prototypes for a 12% Prototype deck (fewer than average, fewer than all of the DLC nations). Somewhere in the region of 30 new models are required and a whole chunk of skinning work.

Overall Belgium is about Canada level, I think. Some decent units but a paucity of good tanks and helicopters drags them down. This list is far from perfect or final so just pipe up if you have thoughts, especially about Luxembourg. I don't know a damn thing about Luxembourg and neither, it seems, does anyone else.


The mirage 5BA MIRSIP would be a great jet I also believe the mirage 5BA got ECM chaff and flares in the 80s

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Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

Postby FrangibleCover » Sun 26 Feb 2017 22:59

Vulcan 607 wrote:
FrangibleCover wrote:
  • Mirage 5BA - 0% ECM. Twin DEFA 552s, 12x Mk.82, 2x AIM-9F.
  • Mirage 5BA RAPPORT II - 20% ECM. Twin DEFA 552s, Some BL.775s, 2x AIM-9F. RAPPORT II programme added AN/ALQ-178(V)2 RWR and DECM.

The mirage 5BA MIRSIP would be a great jet I also believe the mirage 5BA got ECM chaff and flares in the 80s

Good thinking, I'm not sure what to arm the MirSIP with though. It doesn't look like it got any further weaponry so really it's iron, clusters or SNEBs, which is a terrible waste of a prototype. I got the ECM/RWR improvements in the 80s but I didn't catch the chaff/flares, thanks!
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Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

Postby FrangibleCover » Mon 27 Feb 2017 17:21

Okay, post updated with half a dozen new units, mostly to better represent Luxembourg in Category games. I've also had a stab at an air tab which I'm sure will be
Xeno426 wrote:incorrect
:D

Belgium has plenty of options for coalitions, not counting Luxembourg. It's officially part of Eurocorps, was stiffened by British armoured units in Germany and is part of the Low Countries alongside the Netherlands. All of these nations have advanced MRAAM fighters but, aside from France, do not have a decent 30AP ATGM aircraft so that's the role that the Belgian prototype F-16 should take.
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Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

Postby Xeno426 » Tue 28 Feb 2017 19:48

Don't know why you have mixed AIM-9 versions on the same aircraft. Did Belgium even get the AIM-9M?

The Mk.77 was a Navy/Marines bomb, and thus would probably not be cert'd for the USAF-origin F-16. Rather, they'd use their own fire bombs weapons (BLU-1/B, BLU-10/B, BLU-11/B, BLU-23/B, BLU-27/B, BLU-32/B, BLU-35/B, BLU-65/B). Also, the Mk.77 is a 750lb bomb, and would probably be limited to slant-two configuration on TERs, same as the other ~750lb napalm bombs.
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CloakandDagger wrote:And you're one of the people with the shiny colored name. No wonder the game is in the state it's in.

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Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

Postby FrangibleCover » Tue 28 Feb 2017 20:19

Xeno426 wrote:Don't know why you have mixed AIM-9 versions on the same aircraft. Did Belgium even get the AIM-9M?

For the rate of fire. It struck me that no F-16 is currently really fully in the short-range dogfighter role that the F-16 was conceptually designed for. The Peace Bridge and the Dutch Block 1 both have the full AIM-9 loadout but don't have the split-fire that makes the Lazur and L-17K so good, even with worse missiles. If it's unrealistic I'll bin it but I'm really short on ideas for what to do with F-16s that's not already been done.

I found a source on Belgium getting AIM-9Ms in 1990 but I'm afraid I've lost it again.
The Mk.77 was a Navy/Marines bomb, and thus would probably not be cert'd for the USAF-origin F-16. Rather, they'd use their own fire bombs weapons (BLU-1/B, BLU-10/B, BLU-11/B, BLU-23/B, BLU-27/B, BLU-32/B, BLU-35/B, BLU-65/B). Also, the Mk.77 is a 750lb bomb, and would probably be limited to slant-two configuration on TERs, same as the other ~750lb napalm bombs.

Yeah, that's just me not thinking. It's damnably difficult to find information on stocks of napalm bombs, probably because governments are reluctant to admit they have them, so I stuck something down to remind me it was napalm and then copied it straight across. I don't doubt that Belgium had some way of setting things on fire from the air and a heavy napalm bomber would fit nicely with their possible Elite pioneers and generally good anti-infantry potential but I just cannot demonstrate that they operated anything in particular. I'll switch it to, what, 4 BLU-27/b and mark that I've got no evidence for their existence yet.

Thanks for looking over it though, I imagine it gets tiring after the first few hundred new nations.
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Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

Postby Xeno426 » Wed 1 Mar 2017 06:56

FrangibleCover wrote:For the rate of fire. It struck me that no F-16 is currently really fully in the short-range dogfighter role that the F-16 was conceptually designed for. The Peace Bridge and the Dutch Block 1 both have the full AIM-9 loadout but don't have the split-fire that makes the Lazur and L-17K so good, even with worse missiles.

Don't need to set them with different AIM-9 versions, though. Just split them up like I did with the F-16C Peace Rhine in my air forces thread.
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Re: [Non-included nation] BELGIUM

Postby Grabbed_by_the_Spets » Wed 1 Mar 2017 12:32

Eyyy, Xeno got his cool icon back!
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Postby ST21 » Wed 1 Mar 2017 17:24

Nice list, FC. I added a few corrections/recommandations. :D

FrangibleCover wrote:Logistics - Nothing exciting here really.
  • AMX-13 mod.56 PC
  • Land Rover PC or Iltis PC
  • CVRT Sultan
  • Alouette Artouste - An Alouette II with the crap engine. I've banished it to the Logistics tab so that if anyone can use it effectively they will be crowned King of Wargame.
  • Équipe de Commandement - There's going to be a lot of Google French and some Dutch in this I'm afraid. Just yell at me if I'm stupid :D .
  • AMX-13 mod.56 Cargo
  • Unimog Cargo
  • H-34 or Sea King Mk.48 - Belgium never really operated large numbers of any helicopters, everything is going to have to be used somewhere
  • FOB

Add M113A1-B-CP and/or AIFV-B-CP.


Infantry - 15 point Mech Shock for NATO. Also some other dudes for the two deck slots you have left.
  • Karabiniers - Regulars. FAL 50.61s, an RLC-83 Blindicide with the extended range and a MAG M2
  • Karabiniers '90 - FNCs, M72A4s and a MAG M2
  • Chasseurs Ardennais - Mech Shock. FN Uzis, M72s and a FALO
  • Chasseurs Ardennais '90 - FNCs, M72A4s and a Minimi M2. Could get the PzF 3 if they really need it I suppose.
  • Paracommandos - Elite. FAL 50.63s, M72s and a FALO. Could trade either the M72s or the FALO for Handflammpatrone if the S-G stay regular.
  • Paracommandos '90 - P90s, a PzF 3 and a Minimi M2. Might be a prototype unit.
  • Sapeurs-Genie - Could be "Para Pionere" type guys instead. Armed with FN Uzis and Handflammpatrone (A disposable phosphorus grenade projector)
  • MILAN Équipe - Regular. FAL 50.61s and a MILAN
  • MILAN 2 Équipe - Did they operate MILAN 2? If so, FNCs and a Milan 2.
  • Mistral Équipe - FNCs and a Mistral

Tanks - I can't name this section 'Armour' with a straight face.
  • CVRT Scorpion Light Tank - This name might actually be longer than the vehicle, any suggestions?
  • M41
  • M47
  • Leopard 1BE
  • Leopard 1BE AVLS
  • Leopard 1A5(BE) - Prototype. This seems like a good time to point out that the Finnish mega-ammo came from Belgium and therefore there might be some rather nice options for this old gun.
  • Leopard 1A6(BE) - Even Prototyper.

No high-end tanks indeed but maybe give them a boost in veterancy to compensate. Belgian tankers had a great reputation within NATO during the CW. They tended to perform very well at the famed Canadian Army Trophy tank competition.

Recon - All the options are pretty light but I refuse to bend to the recon tank meta and add a 1BE Reco for the sake of it.
  • Iltis [⚯]
  • FN 4RM/62F ABC ⚯ - The C is for Cannon, a 90mm one at that
  • AS-24 [|⚯|] - A motorised trike used by the Paracommandos for airborne operations. Exceptional optics Mönkijä-alike but that reduces Finnish distinctiveness. Could be a transport for small teams and ESR-GVP instead, I guess.
  • CVRT Scimitar ⚯
  • CVRT Scorpion ⚯
  • CVRT Scorpion 90 ⚯ - Prototype. I've not got any actual evidence for this but it's a Belgian gun on a Belgian operated tank. Nigeria apparently got theirs with a Belgian OIP-5 FCS too.
  • M113A1-B-SCB [|⚯|] - Your bog-standard battlefield radar.
  • BDX 20mm - I don't know if it was ever built. I'm leaving it out for now.
  • Chasseurs-Jager [⚯] - Regular infantry, or rather Cavalry. FAL 50.61s and a Blindicide RL-100.
  • Luxembourgers [⚯] - Luxembourg supported Belgian operations in NATO with small numbers of light infantry and reconnaissance assets. These guys are shock rated because of reasons. FALs, M72s and a MAG.
  • Luxembourgers '90 [⚯] - AUGs, M72A4s and an AUG HBAR.
  • ESR-GVP [⚯] - Elite Snipers. FAL 50.64s, M72s and a Model 30-11 rifle.
  • Alouette Astazou [⚯] - Like the CV but with a better engine.

Add A109HO (with FZ LAU-68 rocket pods) observation and recon chopper. Entered service in 1992 so isnt out of timeframe.

Support - Pretty decent AA lineup actually. Generally plenty of options.
  • M42 Duster - Could be a vehicle. Never operated by Belgium.
  • Gepard
  • Unimog Mistral - Prototype. Exactly what it sounds like.
  • SANTAL - Prototype. With thanks to Hansbroger's Force Legere. This is a 6 shot Mistral launcher on either a VAB or a Sagaie. I don't know what Belgium intended to use it on and if we can't find out I vote we wedge it on a 4RM/62F chassis. Could replace the Unimog entirely.
  • Berliet Roland IIS - Prototype from the same source. An IR Roland II on a truck with 4 ready missiles.
  • HAWK
  • I-HAWK
  • I-HAWK PIP-II
  • FN 4RM/62F AB MiMo - This one has a 60mm breech-loading mortar. I'd consider this for the vehicle section too.
  • BDX 81mm - 13 built for the Gendarmerie. Remind me never to go rioting in Belgium :lol:.
  • AMX-13 mod.56 Mor - 81mm mortar in the back of a VCI
  • M113A1-B-Mor - 107mm variant
  • M108
  • M109
  • M109A2
  • M109A4BE
  • M110
  • M110A2

Add MGM-52 Lance.

Vehicles - Weaponized Optimism
  • Jagdpanzer Kanone
  • Jeep ENTAC
  • Land Rover Milan - In UK service this only had Milan 2 Maybe change to Iltis MILAN?
  • Land Rover TOW - Luxembourg had some TOW vehicles
  • HMMWV TOW-2 - LUXEMBOURG STRONG!
  • AMX-13 mod.56 ENTAC
  • M113-B-MIL - Yet another of ANZAC's unique units stolen :cry:
  • AIFV-B-MILAN - I'd give the poor bugger a Milan 2 if possible
  • CVRT Striker
  • CVRT Striker SWIG - Prototype. Yeah, the UK doesn't get it, I know.

Two Belgian prototype units to consider adding:

1. The SIBMAS, a wheeled IFV that could be armed with a Belgian-made Cockerill Mk.III 90mm gun:
Image

2. The ACEC Cobra, an interesting APC with electric transmission instead of mechanical. Had promising performances but sadly never got any orders due to the end of the Cold War. One of the most interesting variants of the Cobra was the AFV version fitted with a Cockerill 90mm gun:
Image

Interestingly, a MLRS version of the Cobra fitted with a FZ LAU-97 rocket system was also tested in 1985 but i cant find any pics of it.

Both SIBMAS and Cobra were evaluated by the Belgian military but eventually not adopted.


Transports - Anyone want a BTR-70? No? How about a 5 point 3 FAV transport for those 15 point shock squads?
  • AMX-13 mod.56 VTT
  • M113A1-B-ATK
  • AIFV-B-.50
  • AIFV-B-C25
  • Land Rover - Slower Humvee clone armed with a MAG. Suitable for Luxembourgers and as a ground transport for Paracommandos.
  • BDX - I'd use the turreted Air Force variant with 2x MGs. The Gendarmerie one is more likely to be found at the front but it's unarmed. Obviously, technically this should be a militia or recon transport but Belgium is short on wheels without it.
  • Pandur I - Prototype. I'm going to go weird here and equip the Pandur with another Prototype system: The FN BRG-15, a weapon similar to the KPVT. This is one of those choices that's better for flavour than gameplay though.
  • CVRT Spartan - Could either be used as a recon transport or as a small team transport like a ground version of the Yugoslav Gazelle.
  • H-34 or Sea King Mk.48 - Belgium never really operated large numbers of any helicopters, everything is going to have to be used somewhere
  • SA.330 - Belgium had 3 Pumas and really need all the airlift they can get
  • A109BA - Prototype
  • Unimog - The standard truck transport
  • HMMWV ⚯ - A recon transport for Luxembourg!

Helicopters - Pretty thin fare in here. I suppose you don't need much vertical lift in a country that flat.
  • Alouette III SS-11 - We already have the model and Belgium had a handful of IIIs Change to Alouette II instead. Adding SS-11 to Alouette II was studied back in the day but not implemented. Alouette III with SS-11 would be too much of a stretch IMO since they are naval helos in Belgian service.
  • Alouette Roquettes - I assume Eugen knows something about this unit?
  • A109HA - Prototype. Really should have 4x TOW-2A, I'd settle for TOW-2 if necessary.

Maybe add A109HA gunship with FN HMP .50 gun pods or FN RMP rocket/0.50 gun pods:

Image
A109 with HMP

Aircraft - Pretty decent. I'm still figuring loadouts out.
  • SABCA F-104G - 0% ECM. M61A1, 4x AIM-9F (apparently the Belgians got some German production). Change to AIM-9J/N? From mid-70s, AIM-9J/N was the primary AAM of BAF F-104s.
  • SABCA F-16A-1 - 20% ECM. M61A1, 2x Mk.84, 2x AIM-9F. Change to AIM-9J/N. Never heard of BAF F-16s using AIM-9F.
  • SABCA F-16A-5 - 20% ECM. M61A1, 4x AIM-9L, 2x AIM-9F.
  • SABCA F-16A-10 - 20% ECM. M61A1, 4x BLU-27/b, 2x AIM-9L. - I can't actually find evidence of Belgian napalm use but I think a napalm bomber would fit well with the rest of the deck. The aircraft is real though, so it's available if we need another loadout.
    Belgian AF used BLU-1/B napalm bombs on F-84F, F-104G and Mirage 5BA. Doubt they were ever used on F-16s though. Mirage 5BAs also used French-made napalm bombs but cant remember the name.
  • SABCA F-16A-15 - 20% ECM. M61A1, 4x AIM-9M, 2x AIM-9L.
  • SABCA F-16A-15OCU - 30% ECM Prototype. M61A1, 2x AGM-65G, 4x AIM-9M. F-16A Block 15OCU were already AMRAAM capable when delivered back in the late 80s. Maybe add AMRAAMs? However, Belgium didnt procure the missiles until the mid/late 90s so maybe a bit out of timeframe...
  • Mirage 5BA - 0% ECM. Twin DEFA 552s, 12x Mk.82, 2x AIM-9F.
  • Mirage 5BA RAPPORT II - 30% ECM. Twin DEFA 552s, 5x BL.775s, 2x AIM-9F. RAPPORT II programme added AN/ALQ-178(V)2 RWR and DECM as well as countermeasure dispensers. The number of bombs is a guess, it could carry at least 2 and the Mirage IIIEE could carry 5 Mk.83s. I hear the Mirage 5BA never got the increased number of pylons so the aircraft are comparable. Should carry AIM-9J/N at this point (early 80s).
  • Mirage 5BA MirSIP - Prototype, first flight in '93 but in service by 1995. Includes a whole slew of upgrades that are irrelevant in Wargame and canards. I don't know what to arm it with and I'd prefer to fill the F-16s out properly first before we get a prototype in.
  • Alpha Jet B1 - 0% ECM. BK-27, 36x SNEBs. Change to LAU-3A rocket pods. SNEB was never in Belgian service. Change to 20mm gun pod instead of BK-27 too.

Why no F-16 MLU with AMRAAMs? A bit out of timeframe but Norway, Denmark and the Netherlands already have it so...

Last edited by ST21 on Wed 1 Mar 2017 18:36, edited 5 times in total.

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