#MakeAmericaGreatAgain

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Vulcan 607
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Vulcan 607 » Thu 10 Aug 2017 12:49

Killertomato wrote:
Fade2Gray wrote:You say "not really" and yet the 7.62 is mentioned in the source you provided as much better against types of surfaces common in urban environments, which is considered to be the focus of wars coming. Also not mentioned is how 7.62, like 50 cal, mulches up cover a lot faster than 5.56. This isn't about just punching through cover, actually breaking it down is critical in an extended firefight, ESPECIALLY in urban environments. You are trying to cherry pick again. 5.56 simply doesn't carve up a wall or car like 7.62 does, where as 7.62 will destroy cover faster.



Fade, you need a lot of ammo to mulch cover. Carrying 300 rounds of 7.62 probably wouldn't be too much of a problem for you vs. carrying 300 rounds of 5.56, but you're not normal. You're 6'5" and presumably not a string bean, so the literal doubling of weight for the same amount of ammo wouldn't be much of a problem for you. It would (assuming combat loads don't go down somehow) be a pretty big problem for most of the army, which is closer to my size. People already come out disabled because of knee problems they get from just rucking around.

The recoil's also less of a problem for you than it is for most people, because you're a lot bigger and heavier in the arms than they are, unless you're completely out of proportion. 5.56 has tiny recoil in an AR platform, 7.62 doesn't. It's just harder to hit things with.


Problem is both rounds are shit 7.62 has a worse arc than 5.56, FMJ doesn't wound that well with a tendency to punch right through if something important isn't hit.( incidentally when the SAS used the m16 in northern Ireland for the first time there was a lot of concern because the little fragmenting bullet was more lethal! the army sold it on the fact it was more accurate and less likely to over penetrate than 7.62 note this was early 5.56 ammunition not ss109 derived rounds.

5.56 lacks range, fmj rounds don't penetrate very well or wound well, the bullet is designed for a 20inch barrel which is great for the l85 but m4a1s and other carbines cannot fully harness its potential (lot less complaints on lethality from the British forces though the l129 was adopted to counter SVDs and PKMs out to a thousand yards l86 can reliably hit out there but again its the limit of 5.56 performance were it will be badly affected by environmental conditions. (Was reading a guy's bit on the l86 on in Afghanistan guy loved it watching it put rounds though a door at 1000m so Taliban couldn't escape a gpmg then riddled the house with a few belts! Was on army rumour service)

Both rounds need replacement but is anything good enough to warrant getting rid of a lot of hardware?

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Grabbed_by_the_Spets
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Grabbed_by_the_Spets » Thu 10 Aug 2017 13:38

You do realize you're arguing with a war vet, right?
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Vulcan 607
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Vulcan 607 » Thu 10 Aug 2017 15:52

Grabbed_by_the_Spets wrote:You do realize you're arguing with a war vet, right?


Just a thing you need to understand vets are biased by there own experiences. The UK found this a big problem when developing small arms during and after ww2, one soldiers experience was drastically different from another even in the same squad.
I will provide a few examples from weapon of choice (its on this very subject incidentally) British engineers during ww2 were asked to develop a thermite tipped shell for tanks and anti tank guns like the Germans used. It didn't take long for the engineers to realise that these didn't exist British tankers believed that's why British tanks would sometimes blow up spectacularly when hit, turned out it was just the ammunition detonating so instead of getting new ammo British tanks got built better.

Example 2 most soldiers hate the l86 and love the minimi. During testing it turned out the l86 suppressed targets more effectively with its high accuracy over weight of fire it was also more reliable and lighter and its still not popular.


https://www.full30.com/video/b1d2108fa7 ... 6b8e747427

Remember when it comes to weapons you have scientists trying to make the most efficient weapon to kill with, then the engineers that have to build it and finally the soldiers that use it. All of them will have their own opinion on what they want many will be contradictory. As of optimum calibres during ww2 and after I believe British scientists decided a projectile between .250 and 270 was optimum for killing and wounding, so obviously the bullet was upped to .276 and sold as 280 to fool the U.S. so you have politics creeping in as well

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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Fade2Gray » Thu 10 Aug 2017 16:22

Vulcan 607 wrote:Remember when it comes to weapons you have scientists trying to make the most efficient weapon to kill with, then the engineers that have to build it and finally the soldiers that use it.

Often times the first two have literally no idea how to make something into what the later wants even after several tries. Even better yet, if they get it right, they tend to forget how to repeat a successful formula.

Grabbed_by_the_Spets wrote:You do realize you're arguing with a war vet, right?

I'm sure he knows. I mean, look at my avatar! I'm basically throwing it right out there!

Maybe I should start all my posts with "as a veteran..."
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Think you have what it takes to enlist into the military? You sure about that?

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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Shrike » Thu 10 Aug 2017 17:34

I haven't heard from lonerifle, I wonder if he finally enlisted. Either way, wowing the grass for gunny is the most patriotic things you can do these days I hear.

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Killertomato
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Killertomato » Thu 10 Aug 2017 18:07

Fade2Gray wrote:Often times the first two have literally no idea how to make something into what the later wants even after several tries. Even better yet, if they get it right, they tend to forget how to repeat a successful formula.


It's not that simple. There is no successful formula. Sometimes complicated things work wonderfully and provide an incredible advantage, like thermal sights in Desert Storm. Sometimes they fail utterly, like AIM-4 in Vietnam. You can't tell immediately because there's no environment like war. You can only test and see what happens, and sometimes there are factors in war that aren't captured by the tests, either because it's impossible or nobody, including the guys on the ground, thought it would be a problem.

That's not to mention that the numbers and the anecdotes disagree pretty often (M16, Sherman), and you have to go with the numbers and not the memes, or else one day some dude will get killed because he has his Man Stopper M1911 with 7 rounds instead of an M9 with 15 rounds.
Last edited by Killertomato on Fri 11 Aug 2017 05:39, edited 1 time in total.
orcbuster wrote:USSR gets prototype marsupials, why would you need moose when you got stuff with kickers like that AND transport capability? And I'm not even gonna START on the french Marsupilami, I don't even think thats a real animal! Why no trolls for Norway?

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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Vulcan 607 » Thu 10 Aug 2017 20:34

Fade2Gray wrote:
Vulcan 607 wrote:Remember when it comes to weapons you have scientists trying to make the most efficient weapon to kill with, then the engineers that have to build it and finally the soldiers that use it.

Often times the first two have literally no idea how to make something into what the later wants even after several tries. Even better yet, if they get it right, they tend to forget how to repeat a successful formula.

Grabbed_by_the_Spets wrote:You do realize you're arguing with a war vet, right?

I'm sure he knows. I mean, look at my avatar! I'm basically throwing it right out there!

Maybe I should start all my posts with "as a veteran..."


Exactly the UK had that problem with the L85! The UK also had terrible delusions on the 4.85 cartridge it was better than 5.56 but the U.S. wasn't going to change all its 5.56 magazines they were pissed off enough when the Belgians won the competition with the ss109 and that just needed a different barrel, imagine new magazines chambers and what not.

And Spets we all know about fades valiant military service in the coast guard, On a shore base, in Florida. :mrgreen: sorry couldn't help myself


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DGy-Fjb8xnA Fade ever do anything like this Egyptian Patton? Balls of steel on that crew!

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Killertomato
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Killertomato » Thu 10 Aug 2017 23:17

orcbuster wrote:USSR gets prototype marsupials, why would you need moose when you got stuff with kickers like that AND transport capability? And I'm not even gonna START on the french Marsupilami, I don't even think thats a real animal! Why no trolls for Norway?

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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Mike » Fri 11 Aug 2017 20:07



Hope it's sarcasm.
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Killertomato
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Killertomato » Fri 11 Aug 2017 21:37

Mike wrote:


Hope it's sarcasm.


That's what Sarah Huckabee Sanders said, but it's kind of weird that (a) he's sarcastic with this where he'd be fire and brimstone with so many other countries and (b) he's not being crucified by the right as a whole.

I mean, hell, imagine what would've happened if Obama said that. :?
orcbuster wrote:USSR gets prototype marsupials, why would you need moose when you got stuff with kickers like that AND transport capability? And I'm not even gonna START on the french Marsupilami, I don't even think thats a real animal! Why no trolls for Norway?

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