World news thread

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Frencho
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Re: World news thread

Postby Frencho » Sat 15 Jul 2017 21:43

Shrike wrote:I want a see a duel between the Leclerc and Ariete in wargame now.


Ariete wins hands down, it has Gucci leather seats and Ferrari engines!

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Re: World news thread

Postby Killertomato » Sat 15 Jul 2017 21:45

Ariete without extra armor isn't too well-protected... but damn is it gorgeous.

Imo, the best looking tank around today.
orcbuster wrote:USSR gets prototype marsupials, why would you need moose when you got stuff with kickers like that AND transport capability? And I'm not even gonna START on the french Marsupilami, I don't even think thats a real animal! Why no trolls for Norway?

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Re: World news thread

Postby Frencho » Sat 15 Jul 2017 21:48

Killertomato wrote:Ariete without extra armor isn't too well-protected... but damn is it gorgeous. The FCS is second to none as well.


Ehhh.... Did you see the gunnery tests during Strong Europe Tank Challenge 2016?
:lol:

I think people focus too much on European and USA MBTs cuz they get all the media attention.

K2 Black Panther and Type 10 are the best on paper at the moment to be honest, they just need to be battle tested.

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Re: World news thread

Postby Fade2Gray » Sun 16 Jul 2017 00:55

Frencho wrote:
Killertomato wrote:Ariete without extra armor isn't too well-protected... but damn is it gorgeous. The FCS is second to none as well.


Ehhh.... Did you see the gunnery tests during Strong Europe Tank Challenge 2016?
:lol:

I think people focus too much on European and USA MBTs cuz they get all the media attention.

K2 Black Panther and Type 10 are the best on paper at the moment to be honest, they just need to be battle tested.

The Type 10 is insanely sexy. Nothing else comes close to it when it comes to vehicles...

other than this.
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Bougnas
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Re: World news thread

Postby Bougnas » Sun 16 Jul 2017 12:05

Frencho wrote:
Killertomato wrote:Ariete without extra armor isn't too well-protected... but damn is it gorgeous. The FCS is second to none as well.


Ehhh.... Did you see the gunnery tests during Strong Europe Tank Challenge 2016?
:lol:

I think people focus too much on European and USA MBTs cuz they get all the media attention.

K2 Black Panther and Type 10 are the best on paper at the moment to be honest, they just need to be battle tested.



Btw what's your opinion on the stuff produced by other European countries like Italy, Poland etc...?
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Re: World news thread

Postby Vulcan 607 » Sun 16 Jul 2017 14:02

Frencho wrote:
Vulcan 607 wrote:Joint Franco German fighter program in the works
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN19Y1FJ

This is the funniest part of the article

"It is a sign to the British. It means 'you are leaving the EU and we are driving forward. We are no longer interested in you blocking the EU on defense'," a senior German defense industry official told Reuters.

Said with no irony dispite the fact Germany delayed the typhoon increasing the price, avoiding a400 slots, not supporting talarion UAV and of cause taking bribes for the f104.

The French aren't much better having a tantrum over typhoon because nobody wanted their terrible engines. Trying to sabotage jaguar exports, developing the mirage f1 while it was meant to be building AFVG with Britain and then denying it when they got caught.

In all honesty the UK is better off working alone developing a jet or working with the US. The UK and France are still developing a UCAV though.


Airbus/Luftwaffe’s Next Generation Weapon System (NGWS) has been in the works for a few years, as in the project conception phase. Started as a German only project and they were begging France to join, as I mentioned it on my posts with you and Sleksa about the Rafale/Canada/Finland.

Thing is, I don’t think NGWS program will be successful. Germany sees it as a pressing short-term strike fighter program to replace their ageing Panavia Tornado fleet, so a 2030-2035 timeframe. France considers the NGWS as a Dassault Rafale Air Superiority replacement in the mid-2040s, seeing the Future Offensive Air System (FCAS) supersonic stealth combat drones will fill the strike role by 2050.

I mean, the operational needs are so divergent I can’t see this project working smoothly, this is basically Eurofighter2.0 but with roles reversed, France wants an interceptor, Germany a multirole. We know how that whole ordeal ended the last time.
The only thing that can salvage this is if the Germans fall in line under French leadership to design an ASF, and in order to replace their Tornados they buy interim tandem seat Rafale MLU/NG to be replaced long term by FCAS drones with custom German avionics & Luftwaffe standards.

Meanwhile, France and U.K have already done some quite successful joint R&D aeronautical projects, SEPECAT Jaguar, and currently two programs.
The first one being the low-key UCAV studies.

Meant for frenemies to share research on stealth drone protos Taranis and nEUROn.
There’s also the Franco British Rolls-Royce Turbomeca Adour engine prototype (just 41Kn) which powered the SEPECAT Jaguar and is being used on the UCAV protos.
The second one is the ambitious Future Combat Air System (FCAS), another next gen engine is in the works; 50% Safran (formerly SNECMA)/ 50% Rolls Royce, but much more powerful for fighter supersonic jet sized drones (they might try hypersonic too). First proto is slated for 2023 flight.

Also, to be frank, Franco-British cooperation tends to be very effective and it’s easier to work with the British than the Germans due to similar approach to warfare and operational needs (as in both actually project power abroad and wage war).

Therefore, Franco-British cooperation results in more coherent, functional and cheaper weapon systems.

Germans, I wholly distrust when it comes to defense projects.

They see weapon systems as high margin export products for rich countries, like if they were selling Mercedes/Audi/BMWs, injecting money in their industrial base to create/keep jobs in the Fatherland.

So, they just sell fancy marked-up weapons riding on “Deutsch kalitat” propaganda and then sell you a shiton of custom kits and upgrade kits over the years. In gamer layman’s terms so readers here get it, they’re basically Paradox hiding bugfixes and core overhauls within a shiton of DLCs, and rebranding it as "a service not a product".

In my opinion, Germans obsess with the industrial aspect of the project and not the actual weapon.

Why? Because they don’t go to war and haven’t in 72 years, if they join a coalition they “might” set up a base in the safest spot of the theatre and have orders not to ever leave it. I guess they don’t feel the same pressure to have cost efficient weapon systems to protect their soldiers’ lives, heh good thing they don’t leave base if their G36 melts after continuous fire in arid regions.
Then once Germans convince you into working with them on joint program, Germany ends up getting 50% of the workshare. Seeing their armed forces are a glorified kindergarten, they cut their orders by half and significantly increase the cost of the weapon systems to the warrior nations (U.K or Fra). Then they only ever bother to push hard for international sales if it’s a 100% German made system like the Leopards, Puma, Boxer, Rheinmetal cannons and their SPGs.

Has ever Germany bothered to push sales abroad for Eurofighter Typhoon or Eurocopter Tiger? No!

Eurocopter Tiger is a failure, entered actual operational service in the late 2000s, almost 20 years after its prototypes flew.
Then Germans wanted to put their own Mauser RMK30 30mm chaingun instead of the French GIAT DEFA 781M 30mm chaingun, so they spent time and funds designing that Mauser crap that never worked, so Germans Tigers don’t have a chaingun now (they can’t do CAS for infantry lol). To compensate the loss, they cut orders from 80 to 56, thus increasing prices for French & Spanish ones as collateral. If they were decent folks they would have avoided the sunk cost fallacy, abandon the Mauser chaingun and fit theirs with GIATs. Economies of scale would have lowered prices too for all the consortium members too.

Can’t blame the Australians for launching a tender to replace their 20 odd Tiger fleet, it’s so expensive and time consuming to maintain. Hell, no wonder the Germans wanted to call it Tiger, probably in homage to the overengineered WW2 heavy tanks.

A400M is a boondongle because the Germans piggy ride European defense project to acquire knowledge and skillsets their industry lacks. Mainly turbine and turbofan technology.

Germany demanded to have the lions share on the A400M turboprop manufacturing. They demanded this as a complete newcomer, MTU aeroengines worked on critical components (FADECS) instead of the low-key ones to learn the ropes, at the expense of Safran and Rolls Royce. So, they are the root of the goddamn cost overruns, delays and plane crashes. MTU learned a great deal, their workforce was well paid, and the rest got shafted with a shitty transport plane.
In short, they are training at Europe’s expense, while the other European countries get a marked up and deficient product which makes a headache out of any intervention, but hey Germans don’t care they as they can’t execute a military operation abroad anyways…

Compared all the previous to France’s and U.K successful cooperation on the Jaguar.
Or to SNECMA being humble and learning the ropes while working with Pratt & Whitley and GE.
They recognized they did not at that time have the level of competence of GE or P&W so they split 50%/50% the production with the French working on the easy non-critical engine parts while the hot parts were reserved for GE or P&W.
If it had been the Germans, they would have asked for 50% of the hot parts, even though they had no competence. That would have cost the program more, with the other party footing the bill and ceding to abusive demands.

Honestly Vulcan, at least the French SAFRAN ENGINE WORKS, it can power a 25-ton Rafale in heavy configuration (that’s 15 tons in payload) of the Charles de Gaulle's deck or proper runway.

The “terrible” French Safran M88 make the Rafale is the only fighter in the world so far capable of carrying 1.5 times its own mass on a regular basis. Unlike German parts imposed on European defense consortiums which end up never working as marketed and costing more, as I previously demonstrated.

Now when it comes to British defense industry Vulcan, reality is that since the mid-2000s it has been progressively phagocyted by the USA Military Industrial Complex. F-35 is the nail in the coffin. Current trend is that USA entities increasingly acquire more & more shares (Blackrock, Franklin etc…). If the trend continues they will own 50% at some point. To conclude, guess who’s BAE number 1 client, USA not UK…

http://www.4-traders.com/BAE-SYSTEMS-9583545/company/

TLDR; Germans just want to pillage French skillset and acumen in Fighter Jets, seeing U.K is now USA’s outsourced worker number 1 and Uncle Sam won’t let them pillage Brits anymore.

Bref, ça va être un merdier ce truc.


Yes the Germans are going to expect France to pay for the project and take the risks, then they will reduce their purchase and expect France to pay for it. This is probably why BAE says they are not worried because they will get involved later (before or after a German hissy fit is the question). I think France might encourage Germany along by pointing out that it is developing a UCAV with the UK and that it can get a willing partner with the UK.

The other problem is the French military has is that it has a much closer relationship with the UK than it does with Germany.

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Re: World news thread

Postby Shrike » Mon 17 Jul 2017 02:16

Killertomato wrote:Ariete without extra armor isn't too well-protected... but damn is it gorgeous.

Imo, the best looking tank around today.

I didn't know dry slabs of lasagna noodles counted as armor.

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Re: World news thread

Postby FrangibleCover » Mon 17 Jul 2017 16:16

Shrike wrote:slabs of lasagna noodles

Alright, I'm confused.
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Re: World news thread

Postby Frencho » Mon 17 Jul 2017 17:47

Bougnas wrote:
Frencho wrote:
Killertomato wrote:Ariete without extra armor isn't too well-protected... but damn is it gorgeous. The FCS is second to none as well.

Ehhh.... Did you see the gunnery tests during Strong Europe Tank Challenge 2016?
:lol:
I think people focus too much on European and USA MBTs cuz they get all the media attention.
K2 Black Panther and Type 10 are the best on paper at the moment to be honest, they just need to be battle tested.

Btw what's your opinion on the stuff produced by other European countries like Italy, Poland etc...?


Well what do you mean by “stuff”? Italian & Polish armoured vehicles or the state of their respective armament industry?

Vulcan 607 wrote: Yes the Germans are going to expect France to pay for the project and take the risks, then they will reduce their purchase and expect France to pay for it. This is probably why BAE says they are not worried because they will get involved later (before or after a German hissy fit is the question). I think France might encourage Germany along by pointing out that it is developing a UCAV with the UK and that it can get a willing partner with the UK.

The other problem is the French military has is that it has a much closer relationship with the UK than it does with Germany.


UCAV=/= FCAS
For now, the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) is an Operational Demonstrations and Technological Demonstrations program for an air combat system. Could be strictly an unmanned combat drone, could be a plane which can be manned and unmanned.

What you call UCAV is not really a program, but an acronym for unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV).
The UCAV component of FCAS is by now practically over, it was an upstream study program and resulted in two UCAV technology demonstrators; the French Dassault nEUROn and the British BAE Taranis.
The point was to have two distinct companies have a go at it, and share their different approach, studies, results, lessons and good practices from their designs to apply them later to FCAS which will be based on single design, taking the best of both Taranis and nEUROn.

The main short to midterm objective of FCAS is to maintain key industrial competencies for the design of new combat aircraft in the framework of European cooperation (Sovereign Capability). The program is part of the Franco-British cooperation policy based on the Lancaster House agreements of 2010. The companies involved are Dassault and BAES, Safran and Rolls-Royce for the engines, Thales and Selex for sensors and communications.

However, by 2025 Italy, Spain and Germany will have the option to join in if they bring a good offer, because France and UK will have cemented their edge on critical technologies acquired by 15 years of joint research and will de jure & de facto keep leadership of the FCAS program.

Long-term objective is to mass produce a cutting-edge air combat system for RAF and Armée de l’Air starting by 2030.

Source in French, from the Senate Military Finances Commission.
Pretty sure you can dig up the one from the British side.

FrangibleCover wrote:
Shrike wrote:slabs of lasagna noodles

Alright, I'm confused.


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Re: World news thread

Postby Vulcan 607 » Mon 17 Jul 2017 21:35

Yes Frencho I was talking to some guys from thales had a look at a few of their UAVs and the tiny black hornet that looks like a toy (apparently the UK binned a ton of them to save money or some other retarded reason :roll: ). Also had a chat about FCAS seems so far they have only decided on an engine.

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