[Non-included Nation] PAKISTAN

User avatar
FrangibleCover
Lieutenant
Posts: 1364
Joined: Mon 14 Nov 2016 21:34
Contact:

[Non-included Nation] PAKISTAN

Postby FrangibleCover » Mon 20 Feb 2017 21:26

Well, here we are then. It's often said that India should be in Wargame and one cannot have India without Pakistan. I'm no expert on the country or the area so anyone that can chip in, especially with translations out of English, is free to. The majority of this information is quickly sourced from freely available and unreliable information (SIPRI, Global Security and, yes, Wikipedia) so there's no guarantee that any of it is accurate.

PAKISTAN in Wargame
Image

Pakistan is a reasonably interesting nation in Wargame terms given their close relations with China and the United States. Unfortunately interesting is not quite the same as good. Their major geopolitical enemy was and is India, who they have an ongoing dispute with over ownership of the Kashmir region. On the basis that India is more Soviet-aligned and likely to be on Redfor I'd put Pakistan on Blufor even though that separates them from their Chinese allies. Hopefully in the next Wargame the strict Red vs. Blue paradigm will be broken and a Sino-Pakistani alliance would be possible. I intend to edit this post a lot so for the moment I'll just dump out a load of stuff that I've found.

Spoiler : Logistics :
  • Sakb - Ostensibly a brand new design for a command post on an M113 drivetrain.Image
    I think somebody at least had the technical drawings for an M577. I don't know when this thing actually entered service but it definitely implies that Pakistan could have operated M577s.
I'm a bit stuck otherwise, does anyone know what the Urdu term for a command squad is?

Spoiler : Infantry :
  • Punjabis - Regular infantry. Punjabis were considered a 'martial race' during the area's rule by Britain and are heavily represented in Pakistan's military, with the Punjab Regiment (composed of 47 battalions currently) being the senior infantry unit in the Pakistani army.
  • Northern Light Infantry - Raised for fighting in the high northern areas of Pakistan and debatably India, the Northern Light Infantry don't seem to have any particular advantage over the rest of Pakistan's army and are therefore probably regular.
  • Golden Arrow - Pakistan is in the awkward position of having no Marines during the entire 1980s and the only real airborne forces I can find being Special Forces, meaning that Mechanised Shock Infantry is going to have to pick up the slack. These guys have a cool name and an English Language Wiki page so they get to be the placeholders.
  • SSG - The Special Services Group. Quite a large Special Forces unit by my understanding, more comparable to Royal Marines or Fallschirmjager. Apparently they used M16s.
Furthermore, here's a list of stuff that I'm reasonably sure Pakistan operated in timeframe:
G3 - Standard service rifle. Snore.
MP5 - I'm actually seeing quite a lot of these in infantry units in photographs. Perhaps a newer thing but interesting.
PK-10 - A Type 56
Type 81

Type 69(-I ?) - Rockets produced in Pakistan
RPG-7 - PG-7 rockets produced in Pakistan, could be a misreporting of the Type 69
M20 Super Bazooka - Pakistan could definitely use some help with the infantry AT

MG3 - :twisted:
Possibly the RPD
SSG 69 - Sniper rifle

HJ-8 - Totally manportable, I swear. Delivered in 1990, probably for reverse-engineering into the Bakhtar Shikan but I don't think there's anything stopping the Pakistanis from just firing them.
Cobra - A bloody awful ATGM, probably out of service by 1980 and also similar to Malyutka in that it's not going to be shoulder-fireable. Like anything else is!
Milan - Rumoured, no hard sources.
SPG-9 - Probably required if Pakistan can't muster a Cat-C manportable ATGM.

Here's where it gets weird though:
Redeye - Dunno when
HN-5A - 1987
Stinger A - 1987, skimmed off CIA shipments to the Mujaheddin https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFA ... 201414.PDF
RBS-70 - 1988
Anza Mk.I - Indigenous design heavily based on the HN-5B, 1989
QW-1 - 1993
Mistral - 1994, ordered in 1991.
What possessed them to buy so many different sorts of MANPADS in so short a time? No idea, there's definite opportunities for flavour in it though. How does a 5 man G3/HN-5A/Anza Mk.I team strike you as an idea?

Spoiler : Transports :
  • UR-416 - An armoured box on a Unimog, operated by the border guard and therefore probably more suitable as a recon transport. Some may have been fitted with 20mm autocannons. 1973.
  • M113A1
  • PIFV - An AIFV for P. One delivered for trials in 1991, a suitable prototype.
  • AB-205 - Delivered in 1974 from Iran.
  • Mi-8T - 1968
  • Bv-206 - Eugen plz

Spoiler : Tanks :
  • Type 85-IIAP - SIPRI claims initial deliveries in 1992 but SIPRI generally isn't great on delivery dates and the first examples may have arrived earlier. Order placed in 1990.
  • Type 69-IIP - 1993
  • Type 59 - Some in '67, some in '72, some in '78
  • T-54 - From Global Security, in service by 1990. Probably a double report of the Type 59s.
  • M48A5 - At least in time for the 1965 war.
  • Type 59 Igman - Prototype. Yugoslavia offered to upgrade Pakistani Type 59s to Igman standard and fit an RO L7 gun and thermals. They were even nice enough to convert one vehicle for trials.
  • Al Khalid - 1999. Absolutely ridiculous but development was planned in 1990 and that's all you seem to need these days.

Spoiler : Recon :
  • UR-416 20mm - Unimogs gone wild
  • PT-76?
  • Type 63 - 1970
  • SA.319B Alouette III
  • SA.315B Lama
  • Pakistan Rangers - Militia recon. The paramilitary border guards of Punjab and Sindh on the Indian border. The guys covering the Afghan/Iranian border are called the Frontier Corps and the top of the country is covered by the Gilgit Baltistan Scouts. The unit could also be called 'Scouts' to invoke the GB Scouts in particular and in general the wide variety of British-established Pakistani irregular units that have variously been called Scouts.
  • SSG(N) - Naval Special Forces. Very limited in numbers, I'm going to suggest 2 man team with a unique loadout of MP5/Stinger A/SSG 69 suitable for boat defence or operations in the high altitude conditions of Kashmir. I think if the Stingers were stolen then they're more likely to be in SF hands

Spoiler : Support :
  • Type 83 122mm - 1982
  • BM-11 - By 1990, according to Global Security.
  • M109A2 - 1983
  • M110A2 - 1984
  • M113A2 Anza - The 1990 Pakistani Strelabus. Twin KPVTs and 4x HN-5B clones. Could probably be a transport instead.
  • M113A2 RBS-70 - I suspect this is a different model to the Norwegian one unfortunately.
  • Crotale Pasban - 1974. Pasban is the name of the shipment programme, similar to the 'Peace Pheasant' F-4s.
Pakistan also operated the Oerlikon GDF so if we need a SPAAG we can toss that on a truck.

Spoiler : Vehicles :
  • M901 ITV - Don't get too excited,it's probably only I-TOW given that it was delivered in 1984
  • M113A2 HJ-8 - Really should be the Bakhtar Shikan but it's all much of a muchness. Technically way OOTF but all of the components were present by 1991.
  • M113 Twin RR - Oh, you say, I'll never use that. Think again, it also has an LRF for some reason! Only a testbed, unfortunately.

Spoiler : Helicopters :
  • AH-1S - One set in 1981, another in 1986. Probably all I-TOW equipped. Some may have been upgraded to AH-1F standard.

Spoiler : Air :
Alright, finally something I know a little about!
Fighters
  • Name: Sabre Mk.6 - 1966, 0% ECM
    Armament: 6x AN/M3, 2x AIM-9B
    Thoughts: Pretty much a suicide fighter for anti-helo work, although the Canadian engine might wangle it slightly better performance then the BD Sabres. The Sabre was very popular in Pakistan and acquitted itself either very well or pretty terribly in the '65 and '71 wars, depending on whose combat reports you choose to believe, and I think it's agreed that they managed to take down a couple of MiG-21s. It went out of service in 1980, keeping it just inside timeframe. I'll fully admit that I've mostly included this unit for '71 reenactments and because it's rumoured that an IAF Gnat, one of my favourite aircraft, managed to get the world's only Ace in a Minute against a flight of inattentive Pakistani Sabres.
  • Name: Mirage IIIEP - 1978, 10% ECM
    Armament: Twin DEFA 522s, 1x R.530, 2x R.550 Magic
    Thoughts: This is the best Cat-C option unfortunately. A clone of the Australian one but nobody uses that either so we'll hope it slips past Eugen.
  • Name: F-16A Peace Gate III - 1990, 30% ECM, Prototype
    Armament: M61A1, 2x AIM-120A or AIM-7F, 4x R.550 Magic II
    Thoughts: Pakistan had these aircraft built, paid for and sat at Davis Monthan AFB because the US was upset at them for breaching the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. I expect that barrier to vanish in a puff of smoke if Pakistan ends up fighting so these brand-new Block 15OCUs can be released to give Pakistan some LRAAMs. The Magics are interesting, apparently Pakistan wired their F-16s for them. Would they have time to do that on these prototype deliveries? Perhaps not. Would you like another boring old F-16AM clone? Discussions continue as to whether Pakistan already had AIM-7F on its F-16s so that's a possibility too, to reduce the unlikelihood of this Prototype.
Bombers
  • Name: F-6A - 1966, 0% ECM
    Armament: 2x Type 1-30s, 4x 250kg napalm bombs
    Thoughts: I'm afraid that the types of bombs are a total guess. There's no doubt that Pakistan operated napalm, they used it in the '71 war. According to a PAF air show report either a B-57, an F-104, a MiG-19 or a Sabre dropped some napalm in a demonstration and I've gone for the one that fits the scale of Wargame, isn't a copy of a current unit and was still in service in 1980. Interestingly, some evidence suggests PAF F-6s were capable of firing AIM-9Bs but they're redundant with the Sabre then.
  • Name: Mirage 5PA - 1978, 10% ECM
    Armament: Twin DEFA 522s, 12x 250kg bombs, 2x R.550 Magic
    Thoughts: I'm not entirely sure about the loadout, that might be a little heavy.
  • Name: A-5C - 1983, 10% ECM
    Armament: Type 23-2, 2x BL.775, 4x 250kg bombs.
    Thoughts: It's not as good as the Yugoslav equivalent but it's alright.
  • Name: F-16A Peace Gate I - 1983, 30% ECM
    Armament: M61A1, 12x Rockeyes, 2x AIM-9P
    Thoughts: The extra ECM from the AN/ALQ-131 is what lifts this above the Danish version towards the F-111F.
  • Name: Mirage IIIO - 1990, 10% ECM
    Armament: Twin DEFA 522s, 4x Mk.83s, 1x R.550 Magic
    Thoughts: Sold to Pakistan by the Australians, meaning that in a BLUvBLU scenario you could theoretically shoot your own plane down in the past. Command's 'Random Single Magic' strikes again, I suspect that one pylon is taken up by the AN/ALQ-72.
Attack
  • Name: Mirage 5PA2 - 1981, 10% ECM
    Armament: Twin DEFA 522s, 36x SNEB, 2x R.550 Magic
    Thoughts: This one has a noticeably better Radar, the Cyrano IV-M, than the original 5PA or even the IIIEP so crank that soft stat up.
  • Name: F-16A Peace Gate II - 1986, 30% ECM
    Armament: M61A1, 2x AS-30L, 4x R.550 Magic II
    Thoughts: A pretty decent ATGM plane. According to SIPRI the ATLIS pods only arrived quite a bit after the AS.30Ls so I guess they were just eyeballing it in the meantime?
  • Name: F-7P Airguard - 1990, 0% ECM
    Armament: Twin Type 1-30s, 28x90mm rockets.
    Thoughts: I wish I were joking but they actually bought a bunch of ECMless MiG-21s in 1990. Here is is throwing a disgusting amount of HE so that it can maybe achieve something before it gets sealclubbed.

Further Air notes: Pakistan received AGM-65Bs in 1985 but the AS.30L is just so much better. AIM-9Ls were also delivered in 1985 but the Magic IIs are more flavoursome with the same stats. Unused Aircraft: Mirage 5PA3 (With the Agave radar for Exocet strikes), MiG-17PF.

In conclusion, Pakistan is pretty crap so far and India would give them a pasting. Oh well. I'll draw up a spreadsheet if we start to get some decent units.
Last edited by FrangibleCover on Wed 9 Aug 2017 21:54, edited 5 times in total.
[Non-included Nation] Belgium - Spreadsheet
[Non-included Nation] Hungary - Spreadsheet
[Non-included Nation] Pakistan

User avatar
Killertomato
More than 10 000 messages. Soldier you are the leader of all armies!
Posts: 13591
Joined: Mon 9 Jul 2012 02:46
Contact:

Re: [Non-included nations] PAKISTAN

Postby Killertomato » Mon 20 Feb 2017 21:28

Punjab Regiment (composed of 47 battalions currently)


Lost it here. 47 battalions in a regiment? That's some colonel at the top. :lol:
orcbuster wrote:USSR gets prototype marsupials, why would you need moose when you got stuff with kickers like that AND transport capability? And I'm not even gonna START on the french Marsupilami, I don't even think thats a real animal! Why no trolls for Norway?

User avatar
FrangibleCover
Lieutenant
Posts: 1364
Joined: Mon 14 Nov 2016 21:34
Contact:

Re: [Non-included nations] PAKISTAN

Postby FrangibleCover » Mon 20 Feb 2017 21:56

Killertomato wrote:
Punjab Regiment (composed of 47 battalions currently)

Lost it here. 47 battalions in a regiment? That's some colonel at the top. :lol:

That isn't the biggest one. The Frontier Force Regiment has 67 battalions on the books. As I understand it it's because the Regiment is not actually related to the combat capability of the unit, they have a Battalion>Division>Corps structure. The Regiment seems to be more focused on providing shared tradition and morale, which I think is an assumption kind of borne out by the fact that most of the Regiments are based around geographical areas and seem to take note of which ethnicities they recruit.
[Non-included Nation] Belgium - Spreadsheet
[Non-included Nation] Hungary - Spreadsheet
[Non-included Nation] Pakistan

User avatar
Killertomato
More than 10 000 messages. Soldier you are the leader of all armies!
Posts: 13591
Joined: Mon 9 Jul 2012 02:46
Contact:

Re: [Non-included nations] PAKISTAN

Postby Killertomato » Mon 20 Feb 2017 22:11

FrangibleCover wrote:That isn't the biggest one. The Frontier Force Regiment has 67 battalions on the books. As I understand it it's because the Regiment is not actually related to the combat capability of the unit, they have a Battalion>Division>Corps structure. The Regiment seems to be more focused on providing shared tradition and morale, which I think is an assumption kind of borne out by the fact that most of the Regiments are based around geographical areas and seem to take note of which ethnicities they recruit.


That makes sense. Interesting that they should choose a regiment for each and not a larger formation like an army or even a division... legacy of the brits maybe?
orcbuster wrote:USSR gets prototype marsupials, why would you need moose when you got stuff with kickers like that AND transport capability? And I'm not even gonna START on the french Marsupilami, I don't even think thats a real animal! Why no trolls for Norway?

User avatar
FrangibleCover
Lieutenant
Posts: 1364
Joined: Mon 14 Nov 2016 21:34
Contact:

Re: [Non-included nations] PAKISTAN

Postby FrangibleCover » Tue 21 Feb 2017 00:23

Killertomato wrote:
FrangibleCover wrote:That isn't the biggest one. The Frontier Force Regiment has 67 battalions on the books. As I understand it it's because the Regiment is not actually related to the combat capability of the unit, they have a Battalion>Division>Corps structure. The Regiment seems to be more focused on providing shared tradition and morale, which I think is an assumption kind of borne out by the fact that most of the Regiments are based around geographical areas and seem to take note of which ethnicities they recruit.

That makes sense. Interesting that they should choose a regiment for each and not a larger formation like an army or even a division... legacy of the brits maybe?

All 6 Battalions (2 reserve) of the Royal Regiment of Scotland say probably. The difference is that Army and Division have organizational meanings and assigned supporting arms and stuff like that whereas a Regiment is basically just a bucket of Battalions that can be made up into Brigades and deployed.
[Non-included Nation] Belgium - Spreadsheet
[Non-included Nation] Hungary - Spreadsheet
[Non-included Nation] Pakistan

User avatar
Eukie
Chief Warrant Officer
Posts: 514
Joined: Wed 23 Apr 2014 16:22
Contact:

Re: [Non-included Nation] PAKISTAN

Postby Eukie » Thu 15 Jun 2017 11:37

FrangibleCover wrote:MP5 - I'm actually seeing quite a lot of these in infantry units in photographs. Perhaps a newer thing but interesting.


Pakistan uses the system where SMGs and rifles are mixed within a squad, similar to how a lot of things were during WWII and the Australian squad loadout in Vietnam (where the 'Command & 'Scout Group' of a section was armed with with two SMGs/M16s, the 2ic in charge of the machine gun group sometimes carried an SMG/M16, and the rest carried SLR L1s or the M60), with a single MP5A2 issued to the squad leader. At least that's how it was in 2001-ish.

Point is, it's something you could model in Steel Divisions: Siachen 89, but in Wargame: Indian Subcontinent Escalation, you wouldn't bother. It's G3 + RPG-7 + MG3 all the way.

User avatar
HrcAk47
Colonel
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat 3 May 2014 18:00
Contact:

Re: [Non-included Nation] PAKISTAN

Postby HrcAk47 » Wed 9 Aug 2017 22:26

As per FrangibleCovers request, I will write here on the Yugo-Pakistani trade deals on the Igman system.

Pakistan was looking for modernizing its fleet of Type 59s, and Yugoslavia was able to provide a very capable, modern, digital FCS on the cheap. As the basis, Igman tank was taken. Pakistan insisted that the modernization should also entail a new gun - 105 mm L7, with the provision for its ammo storage, and a number of smaller technical details that were taken off the M-84, most notably the fire suppression system based on halon release.

So Yugoslavia created a possibility of a knockdown kit, where local industry would be able to modernize tanks.

Here's the prototype on testing.
Attachments
Ja, Milan, Zdravko i Miloš na Kašmiru.jpg
Ja, Milan, Zdravko i Miloš na Kašmiru.jpg (293.54 KiB) Viewed 213 times
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

SMB Yugoslavia Retexture Mod, now released, v.1.0

User avatar
chykka
Brigadier
Posts: 3330
Joined: Wed 28 Nov 2012 14:55
Location: Canada, Alberta
Contact:

Re: [Non-included Nation] PAKISTAN

Postby chykka » Sun 3 Sep 2017 01:57

Eukie wrote:
FrangibleCover wrote:MP5 - I'm actually seeing quite a lot of these in infantry units in photographs. Perhaps a newer thing but interesting.


Point is, it's something you could model in Steel Divisions: Siachen 89, but in Wargame: Indian Subcontinent Escalation, you wouldn't bother. It's G3 + RPG-7 + MG3 all the way.


you could just half the cost and half the size lol, than you got two main line small arms. The Ui won't display it but it would be hard to get them all on target if the squads infantry are spread out. Oh and you couldn't get more than one of the same squad type in one block. :geek:
Image

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests