Flight sim advice

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StalkerDellaNote
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Re: Flight sim advice

Postby StalkerDellaNote » Thu 13 Jul 2017 19:03

Oh FFS, so while window shopping for new stick, I learned that Thrustmaster, with their Warthog HOTAS, has an F/A-18 stick add-on coming soon, which is obviously perfect for F/A-18 no shit, but also the Harrier & F-15! So yep, I'll most definitely be getting, I suggest looking into it, I've heard nothing but good things about the Warthog HOTAS anyways
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Re: Flight sim advice

Postby Xeno426 » Thu 13 Jul 2017 19:16

StalkerDellaNote wrote:I've heard nothing but good things about the Warthog HOTAS anyways

There are a few negatives. First one being cost; I was lucky to snag mine off Ebay for $350. The second is that the metal can cause issues if you're in a cold room; long use of the stick can leave your hands in pain. The strength of the springs and buttons also tend to make it not very suitable for more arcade-like sims, such as Elite: Dangerous. Finally, the ball socket of the stick is all plastic rather than metal, and the grease is rather cheap. I'd suggest taking it apart (CAREFULLY! Watch a tutorial!) to sand down the rough edges on two of the wholes on the "ball" and to remove and replace all the grease with something better.

[EDIT]
And don't forget the stick has no twist, so you have to get rudder pedals.
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CloakandDagger wrote:And you're one of the people with the shiny colored name. No wonder the game is in the state it's in.

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Re: Flight sim advice

Postby Mephistopheles » Fri 14 Jul 2017 15:51

Xeno426 wrote:No, he mostly flies the A-10C. Then F-15C, and then other study-level sims.

I might be mistaken or he just doesnt upload enough videos of him in an A10 but most of the times i have seen him in Openconflict or on his videos he flew the F-15.


Xeno426 wrote:All the FC3 aircraft have PFMs except for the Su-33. The F-15C was the first to get one, actually.
The F-15C is so forgiving because of its flight control system.

Actually you are right the F-15C has according to ED an PFM model, My info on the F-15C flight model is from 2014. I just saw they updated the flight model from SFM to PFM/AFM during that time since ED tranfered work on F-15C to belsimtek.

Xeno426 wrote:SAM sites in Falcon 4.0 are also limited by terrain, but terrain doesn't play a big part when you're over 5000 meters ASL.

I am fine with the modeling of SAM sites in DCS. on previous Sims i always had the impression that SAM are always modeled way to accruate. Since the previous SAM generation IRL often miss than they are hitting anything.
But its not only limited to SAMs. When you fire a missile in DCS at maximum range chances are high that it will miss if target is not a tanker. This is especially the rule for russian R-27 missiles but also to all other AA missiles to a lesser extent. Damage modeling is another issue. I once ate 2xAim 120 and an aim-9 before the enemy scored a kill.
The biggest issue i have in DCS and most other people is "Plane spotting". Its very hard to spot an enemy airplane especially in a dogfight.

Xeno426 wrote:BTW, why are you capitalizing words like "mod" and "understanding"?

I am german. We capitalize alot of words besides name depending on grammar. Objects are being captilized in german and substantitive verbs or adjectives like "Understanding". I do understand that its wrong, its just my muscle memory that quickly presses shift :)
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Re: Flight sim advice

Postby Mephistopheles » Fri 14 Jul 2017 16:08

Xeno426 wrote:
StalkerDellaNote wrote:I've heard nothing but good things about the Warthog HOTAS anyways

There are a few negatives. First one being cost; I was lucky to snag mine off Ebay for $350. The second is that the metal can cause issues if you're in a cold room; long use of the stick can leave your hands in pain. The strength of the springs and buttons also tend to make it not very suitable for more arcade-like sims, such as Elite: Dangerous. Finally, the ball socket of the stick is all plastic rather than metal, and the grease is rather cheap. I'd suggest taking it apart (CAREFULLY! Watch a tutorial!) to sand down the rough edges on two of the wholes on the "ball" and to remove and replace all the grease with something better.

[EDIT]
And don't forget the stick has no twist, so you have to get rudder pedals.


A good alternative if is the CH Products Fighter stick its made of durable plastic. That kind of thick plastic they used 90s for a lot of PC products.

The Previous Thrustmaster Cougar had similiar issues but there were alot of tweaks available and even complete gimbal and spring replacements. But they were pricey and quickly raised the price for an new modded cougar to 600$+
Not sure what kind of mods are available for the Warthog. The only one i came along is transforming the Warthog into a force sensing stick like the real F-16 Stick.
Quality wise the Warthog is a step above its old cougar but the Thrust throttle is not. For the throttle they reverted to plastic instead of the Metal of the F-16 Cougar thrust throttle

A jack of all trades is the T16000 M by thrustmaster. They updated it and released a new thrust throttle which is really good. Alot of people use that stick for elite dangerous too in an dual stick configuration.

But i would stay away from saitek as long their new master Logitech hasnt sorted out the quality issues. I used to have X-36F, X-45, X-52...X-45 and X-52 i found inacurate and due to the single spring mounting and position which caused a high intial friction to overcome and made only stuttering movements possible.
The Old X-36 looks very similiar to the X-52 and much more to the X-45 but has an conventional spring setup at its gimbals within its housing.
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Re: Flight sim advice

Postby Xeno426 » Fri 14 Jul 2017 17:46

A couple things I missed regarding the Mirage 2000C: the terrible tutorials are a big problem (and one reason Ralfidude has been having such issues with the aircraft; it's hard to use it right when there's no good source on how everything works) and the limit of just four missiles. When facing enemies that have at least double the number of missiles, that's a pretty nasty disadvantage, especially when dealing with the rather aerodynamics of missiles in DCS unless playing on a server that uses the missile mod.

Regarding the F-15C: a study-level mod would honestly make the aircraft even more deadly to face, because there's a lot of automation with its systems, and the radar is a lot harder to spoof by dropping altitude or beaming it.

Mephistopheles wrote:A good alternative if is the CH Products Fighter stick its made of durable plastic. That kind of thick plastic they used 90s for a lot of PC products.

CH has been around for quite some time, but getting the sick and throttle will still cost you around $240, and it doesn't have twist either, so you'll still need to get rudder pedals (or learn to rudder with your keyboard, not recommended in a helo).. The quality is pretty good, though I've heard different opinions on the spring strength. The throttle's movement, however, I've had good second-hand opinions on; the forward-back movement was very smooth and felt very good.

I don't know how it compares, but the Thrustmaster T.16000M HOTAS throttle uses the same movement. That HOTAS setup might also be worth looking into, and Ralfidude has made a review about it as well. He gives it pretty high marks, especially since he was looking for a "cheap" HOTAS for less sim-intensive games like Elite:Dangerous and ShitThunder (Ralfi's words). Really wish that slew sensor on that HAT was the one used on the Warthog.
Incidentally, you can get the T.16000M throttle separate from the stick if you want to get a different stick, like a Black Mamba.

He had originally purchased and reviewed the X-55 in hopes to find a stick to replace his old X-52 Pro, but was not at all impressed with that HOTAS. I have a friend that got the X-56 (basically X-55 with a proper HAT on the thumb position of the stick and different colors), and hasn't had problems with it. He has unusually large hands, though he probably still has the same issues with the two small HATs on the throttle.

Mephistopheles wrote:The Previous Thrustmaster Cougar had similiar issues but there were alot of tweaks available and even complete gimbal and spring replacements. But they were pricey and quickly raised the price for an new modded cougar to 600$+

Yeah, the fixes for the Cougar were pretty numerous. It could be turned into a very good stick, but it cost a fair penny and you really don't want to use it without those mods.

Mephistopheles wrote:Not sure what kind of mods are available for the Warthog. The only one i came along is transforming the Warthog into a force sensing stick like the real F-16 Stick.

I'd love to see a force feedback Thrustmaster, but until Microsoft's patent on that expires we'll likely not see anything in that department.
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Re: Flight sim advice

Postby StalkerDellaNote » Fri 14 Jul 2017 18:26

Xeno426 wrote:
Mephistopheles wrote:Not sure what kind of mods are available for the Warthog. The only one i came along is transforming the Warthog into a force sensing stick like the real F-16 Stick.

I'd love to see a force feedback Thrustmaster, but until Microsoft's patent on that expires we'll likely not see anything in that department.

I don't quite understand what you mean, maybe I'm a bit dull. What's Microsoft have to do with force feedback? I have racing wheels out the ass with force feedback.. Thrustmaster ones at that.. Microsoft owns a force feedback patent on sticks?
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Re: Flight sim advice

Postby Mephistopheles » Fri 14 Jul 2017 18:32

Xeno426 wrote:A couple things I missed regarding the Mirage 2000C: the terrible tutorials are a big problem (and one reason Ralfidude has been having such issues with the aircraft; it's hard to use it right when there's no good source on how everything works) and the limit of just four missiles. When facing enemies that have at least double the number of missiles, that's a pretty nasty disadvantage, especially when dealing with the rather aerodynamics of missiles in DCS unless playing on a server that uses the missile mod.

Regarding the F-15C: a study-level mod would honestly make the aircraft even more deadly to face, because there's a lot of automation with its systems, and the radar is a lot harder to spoof by dropping altitude or beaming it.


The M2000C is for sure not as capable as the f15c...it lacks thrust, range, payload, radar, enough pylons, and armament.
But flying the M2000C can be very rewarding or frustating or both at the same time. you have to be very selective with the few missiles you have. You need to annalyse ur targets first to find out if its a worthy target.
Than there is the known issue of loosing a target lock especially when the target is below you with ground clutter as background.
There was an early version issue of the M2000C where fast rolling caused u too loose lock too. it has been fixed since than.
Than you need to deploy ur missiles carefully. finding th ebest firing solution. An advantage of the M2000C is its clear Radar display symbology and its a pretty nimble fighter. Also its radar modes are pretty decent. The HUD smybology is clear and very nice. not as stuffed and clutered as the F-15C or A10C but also not as simple and dumb as the SU27´s HUD. The Dogfight-Gun sight is a pain in the ass to use.


Xeno426 wrote:I don't know how it compares, but the Thrustmaster T.16000M HOTAS throttle uses the same movement. That HOTAS setup might also be worth looking into, and Ralfidude has made a review about it as well. He gives it pretty high marks, especially since he was looking for a "cheap" HOTAS for less sim-intensive games like Elite:Dangerous and ShitThunder (Ralfi's words). Really wish that slew sensor on that HAT was the one used on the Warthog.
Incidentally, you can get the T.16000M throttle separate from the stick if you want to get a different stick, like a Black Mamba.

He had originally purchased and reviewed the X-55 in hopes to find a stick to replace his old X-52 Pro, but was not at all impressed with that HOTAS. I have a friend that got the X-56 (basically X-55 with a proper HAT on the thumb position of the stick and different colors), and hasn't had problems with it. He has unusually large hands, though he probably still has the same issues with the two small HATs on the throttle.


Yea i saw ralphidudes X-55 review...which was good since i was thinking of ordering it from amazaon and see if madcatz did something good with the X-55 review.
Looked into the long ago black mamba but for some uknown reason they stopped offering it. Maybe because they released a new and more modern looking model:
https://i.imgur.com/iqEN4qc.jpg

Looks nice so far. From what i know they have a Throttle control station in development....yea not just a throttle it will be a whole station with buttons and levers under the throttle in the housing similiar to the warthog but from what i have heard in much larger dimensions.



Xeno426 wrote:I'd love to see a force feedback Thrustmaster, but until Microsoft's patent on that expires we'll likely not see anything in that department.

Look no further than into the Logitech G940 Flightstick with rudder pedals but beware. Built quality is decent but it is a joystick with software issues but still the only modern force feedback HOTAS system. You can get those for reltavivly fair price on ebay...if u find them.
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Re: Flight sim advice

Postby Mephistopheles » Fri 14 Jul 2017 18:36

StalkerDellaNote wrote:
Xeno426 wrote:
Mephistopheles wrote:Not sure what kind of mods are available for the Warthog. The only one i came along is transforming the Warthog into a force sensing stick like the real F-16 Stick.

I'd love to see a force feedback Thrustmaster, but until Microsoft's patent on that expires we'll likely not see anything in that department.

I don't quite understand what you mean, maybe I'm a bit dull. What's Microsoft have to do with force feedback? I have racing wheels out the ass with force feedback.. Thrustmaster ones at that.. Microsoft owns a force feedback patent on sticks?


Force sensing is not the same as force feedback. A force sensing joystick actually doesnt move like a normal joystick. it will remain in position. and u steer your aircraft by applaying force on the stick. it recognized how much force you apply and transforms this into pitch, roll, yaw. Its something you need to get used of since a joystick with force sensing will not move at all or only a tiny bit.

Here a video that will show u more:
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Re: Flight sim advice

Postby Xeno426 » Fri 14 Jul 2017 19:57

StalkerDellaNote wrote:I don't quite understand what you mean, maybe I'm a bit dull. What's Microsoft have to do with force feedback? I have racing wheels out the ass with force feedback.. Thrustmaster ones at that.. Microsoft owns a force feedback patent on sticks?

Force Feedback, where the flight stick pushes back on you thanks to motors in the unit to help simulate the "feel" of an actual aircraft (especially pre-FBW ones) is something Microsoft first made in the 90's IIRC, and they patented it. By patenting it, nobody else could make a similar system without paying them a large sum of money, so outside of Logitechs G940 HOTAS (which had QA problems, lots of stories of the wires getting pinched to the point of no longer working and it's been OOP for quite some time) and the old Sidewinder joysticks, we've not seen any new joysticks with a similar system.

Force sensing is what the actual F-16 uses. The old Saitek X-65F was also force sensing. Basically, the stick doesn't move at all, but senses the amount of force being applied to it and uses that input to determine the amount of roll or pitch to apply. Basically, instead of using the angle of stick position to determine the amount of aileron and elevator movement, the amount of force the pilot applies to the stick is used. In real life, this makes it a bit easier to use the stick when under heavy g's.

Mephistopheles wrote:Than there is the known issue of loosing a target lock especially when the target is below you with ground clutter as background.
There was an early version issue of the M2000C where fast rolling caused u too loose lock too. it has been fixed since than.
Than you need to deploy ur missiles carefully. finding th ebest firing solution. An advantage of the M2000C is its clear Radar display symbology and its a pretty nimble fighter. Also its radar modes are pretty decent. The HUD smybology is clear and very nice. not as stuffed and clutered as the F-15C or A10C but also not as simple and dumb as the SU27´s HUD. The Dogfight-Gun sight is a pain in the ass to use.

Yeah, the US HUDs tend to favor plenty of information, which can be very overwhelming until you're used to it. The AJS 37 is similarly sparse in terms of HUD symbology.
And the Mirage 2000C pays for that instantaneous turn capability by sacrificing sustained turn ability; it bleeds energy like crazy.

On a side note, I hope I'm not being too rude by pointing out that
than: comparing two objects by quality (this car is smaller than that truck)
then: comparing two objects or events in time (he got out of the car, then put on his coat)

Mephistopheles wrote:Yea i saw ralphidudes X-55 review...which was good since i was thinking of ordering it from amazaon and see if madcatz did something good with the X-55 review.
Looked into the long ago black mamba but for some uknown reason they stopped offering it. Maybe because they released a new and more modern looking model:

Yeah, the original Black Mamba isn't available anymore, which is a shame because it had so many switches and stuff on the base of the stick. Personally, I'd love to see a full Su-27S HOTAS or PAK-FA HOTAS (sure, I know there won't be a Su-50 sim, but that HOTAS is pretty nice looking).
Of course, it would be nice to have a late Cold War Soviet jet to go with such a HOTAS...
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CloakandDagger wrote:And you're one of the people with the shiny colored name. No wonder the game is in the state it's in.

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Re: Flight sim advice

Postby Vulcan 607 » Fri 14 Jul 2017 20:21

Guys is it weird I want to see Star Wars Tie fighter done like falcon 4 bms?

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