[Now in Red Dragon] FINLAND

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Mike
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Re: [Now in Red Dragon] FINLAND

Postby Mike » Tue 19 Sep 2017 03:12

J0h1F wrote:Here's a picture of a BMP-2 in Finnish service with the launcher for the 9M113 Konkurs (PSTOHJ 82M) missiles attached. On a reasonable number of the vehicles they were kept as long as the acquired missiles had shelf life left, and were scrapped just in the 2000's.
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So that's one thing the game has wrong, there should be a variant of the BMP-2 with Konkurs in Finnish transports too.


Introduction date....?
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Re: [Now in Red Dragon] FINLAND

Postby another505 » Tue 19 Sep 2017 05:30

Mike wrote:
J0h1F wrote:Here's a picture of a BMP-2 in Finnish service with the launcher for the 9M113 Konkurs (PSTOHJ 82M) missiles attached. On a reasonable number of the vehicles they were kept as long as the acquired missiles had shelf life left, and were scrapped just in the 2000's.
Image

So that's one thing the game has wrong, there should be a variant of the BMP-2 with Konkurs in Finnish transports too.


Introduction date....?

who cares about intro date, its a dlc nation!
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Re: [Now in Red Dragon] FINLAND

Postby Tiera » Tue 19 Sep 2017 12:04

We both know that Finland isn't the worst offender in that regard, on the contrary.
As for the BMP-2: AFAIK this was a post-Cold War doctrinal change, introduced after they had enough launcher units to re-arm the Brigade-level AT Companies with TOWs.
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Mike
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Re: [Now in Red Dragon] FINLAND

Postby Mike » Wed 20 Sep 2017 15:25

Tiera wrote:We both know that Finland isn't the worst offender in that regard, on the contrary.
As for the BMP-2: AFAIK this was a post-Cold War doctrinal change, introduced after they had enough launcher units to re-arm the Brigade-level AT Companies with TOWs.


Well MAYBE if they didn't buy all those hornets!
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Re: [Now in Red Dragon] FINLAND

Postby Tiera » Wed 20 Sep 2017 22:48

Mike wrote:
Tiera wrote:We both know that Finland isn't the worst offender in that regard, on the contrary.
As for the BMP-2: AFAIK this was a post-Cold War doctrinal change, introduced after they had enough launcher units to re-arm the Brigade-level AT Companies with TOWs.


Well MAYBE if they didn't buy all those hornets!

Honestly: All I wanted for Christmas was a Gripen/MiG-29-combo... :cry:
But those damn memetic Rauma-Repola deep-sea submarines and Ronnie R ruined it all in the 1980s.
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Re: [Now in Red Dragon] FINLAND

Postby J0h1F » Thu 21 Sep 2017 02:36

Mike wrote:
J0h1F wrote:Here's a picture of a BMP-2 in Finnish service with the launcher for the 9M113 Konkurs (PSTOHJ 82M) missiles attached. On a reasonable number of the vehicles they were kept as long as the acquired missiles had shelf life left, and were scrapped just in the 2000's.
Image

So that's one thing the game has wrong, there should be a variant of the BMP-2 with Konkurs in Finnish transports too.

Introduction date....?

Tiera wrote:We both know that Finland isn't the worst offender in that regard, on the contrary.
As for the BMP-2: AFAIK this was a post-Cold War doctrinal change, introduced after they had enough launcher units to re-arm the Brigade-level AT Companies with TOWs.


According to my source (https://maanpuolustus.net/threads/miehist%C3%B6n-kuljetus.762/page-249#post-529981, link in Finnish), a FDF armored jaeger/panssarijääkäri trainer officer (who goes under the nickname "CV9030FIN" on some internet forums, he probably has been quoted here in earlier instances too), the Konkurs launcher was a part of the original installation from the 1988 acquisition already. Though, because it was difficult to use and could not be fired while on the move, it was often dismounted when possible to be used on foot, as per the tactics.
The ammo stack was 4 missiles in each BMP-2.

The Konkurs launchers were removed from the BMP-2's (and BMP-1's) in 2003, when the PSTOHJ 82M (Konkurs) was scrapped FDF-wide.

The BMP-1 which were acquired from GDR stocks however at the end of the Cold War, were modified to the BMP-1PS standard between 1993 and 1996 (and the missile launcher was changed from the standard 9M14 Malyutka to the new 9P135M-1 Konkurs launcher), so the system was easier to use (I've yet got to ask more about them). But even despite this, the tactic was to dismount the Konkurs launchers usually when possible.

EDIT: while there were the launchers for the Malyutka, missiles were never procured for them, so that's a moot case.

So I see it that both the BMP-2 w/o Konkurs and BMP-2 with Konkurs should be available for Finland. So should the BMP-1 have possibly also a 1993 proto with the Konkurs.
Last edited by J0h1F on Thu 21 Sep 2017 22:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Now in Red Dragon] FINLAND

Postby Markenzwieback » Thu 21 Sep 2017 09:30

J0h1F wrote:The BMP-1 which were acquired from GDR stocks however at the end of the Cold War, were modified to the BMP-1PS standard between 1993 and 1996 (and the missile launcher was changed from the standard 9M14 Malyutka to the new 9P135M-1 Konkurs launcher), so the system was easier to use (I've yet got to ask more about them).

Remember the alternative timeline. In a full scale war, the GDR wouldn't have given up their infantry fighting vehicles, just as West-Germany wouldn't have given up the majority of their Leopard 2s.
Courtesy to a discussion of the upcoming DLC for SD44. Sufficient to say, one of my
mates is very happy about the new Allied divisions. I totally don't get why... :roll:

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Re: [Now in Red Dragon] FINLAND

Postby Sleksa » Thu 21 Sep 2017 12:15

J0h1F wrote:
Mike wrote:
J0h1F wrote:Here's a picture of a BMP-2 in Finnish service with the launcher for the 9M113 Konkurs (PSTOHJ 82M) missiles attached. On a reasonable number of the vehicles they were kept as long as the acquired missiles had shelf life left, and were scrapped just in the 2000's.

So that's one thing the game has wrong, there should be a variant of the BMP-2 with Konkurs in Finnish transports too.

Introduction date....?

Tiera wrote:We both know that Finland isn't the worst offender in that regard, on the contrary.
As for the BMP-2: AFAIK this was a post-Cold War doctrinal change, introduced after they had enough launcher units to re-arm the Brigade-level AT Companies with TOWs.


According to my source (https://maanpuolustus.net/threads/miehist%C3%B6n-kuljetus.762/page-249#post-529981, link in Finnish), a FDF armored jaeger/panssarijääkäri trainer officer (who goes under the nickname "CV9030FIN" on some internet forums, he probably has been quoted here in earlier instances too).


From realism perspective both options can be argued for, with or without. The without one relies more on a doctrinal/likely combat employment argument which is a fairly rare one and in the few prior ingame examples that it has been used, has also been a negative one (usmc & lav transport, many different aircraft).

However from a gameplay point of view the whole idea of finland in redfor was to add variety to the massive amount of copypasted soviet machinery with different nation-logos on the side. Missile-armed bmps in this regard can be found on almost every single redfor nation, so copy pasting one more wouldn't really add anything new to the red side, while a non-missile carrying one does.

All natinal unit rosters are also limited in the amount of units they contain. Adding a missile+non missile variant would've then taken space from other units, while not offering anything that interesting to the roster. Also as far as Bmp-1+malyutka goes, malyutkas were never bought by Finland and their aiming system+ autoloader was removed when coming into Finnish service.
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Re: [Now in Red Dragon] FINLAND

Postby J0h1F » Thu 21 Sep 2017 22:59

Markenzwieback wrote:
J0h1F wrote:The BMP-1 which were acquired from GDR stocks however at the end of the Cold War, were modified to the BMP-1PS standard between 1993 and 1996 (and the missile launcher was changed from the standard 9M14 Malyutka to the new 9P135M-1 Konkurs launcher), so the system was easier to use (I've yet got to ask more about them).

Remember the alternative timeline. In a full scale war, the GDR wouldn't have given up their infantry fighting vehicles, just as West-Germany wouldn't have given up the majority of their Leopard 2s.


Tho FDF had already obtained BMP-1's beforehand.

But as Sleksa pointed out and I got to hear from the source, the Malyutka launcher rails were there but no missiles were bought for them, and they were subsequently disassembled altogether in the earlier batches, and in the late batches they were instantly replaced with the 9P135M.

Apparently both 9M111 Fagot (PSTOHJ 82) and 9M113 Konkurs (PSTOHJ 82M) were used with the 9P135M launchers.

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