Wargame franchise

Comrade_Bane
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Re: Wargame franchise

Postby Comrade_Bane » Mon 30 Jan 2017 18:19

steppewolf wrote:I remember that, he put a lot of work into it. I spoke with him when he wrote the campaigns and although we couldn't agreed on some parts of history it was a very enjoyable debate.


I just really liked the campaign editor and creator idea. With that anything that any player saw as unappealing could be edited out by the player. And if players were able to create and share campaigns, it would lead to a vibrant and interactive community as well as single player play that would NEVER get old.

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FrangibleCover
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Re: Wargame franchise

Postby FrangibleCover » Mon 30 Jan 2017 18:37

steppewolf wrote:Have you bothered to read about T-55 Enigma article? Btw, some Chinese tanks used that armor aswell, it wasn't even standardized..at best would add +1 or 2 FAV to base T-55. It's nothing meme there besides the looks of it which is Christmas tree style like is the fashion with weapons in the respective area :)

That Article wrote:All in all, the Enigma upgrade should not be seen as hasty, improvised, or poorly thought out, but rather cheaply done with crude materials.

That Article wrote:It is reported that during the battle, the Enigmas could survive hits from MILAN AT missiles, although this was probably not a consistent occurrence.

That Article wrote:evidence suggests a direct hit to armor block was likely to be non-fatal in at least some instances

I'll accept that 15 FAV is perhaps too much but don't dismiss it as totally crap. When you strap that much ironmongery to a tank it's going to disrupt some stuff.

Doctrinally supported FIST may be in every deck, heck Romania have a completely original RPG on armburst principle with thermobaric warhead which don't even deliver smoke when fired -> stealth ;)
Laith (Luna-M) in fact was modernized with Romanian expertise, same for Scuds so hardly something unique besides I don't see how this upgrade, even with improved guidance can be on par with ATCAMS, maybe Tochka can claim such a role... I know Romanian individuals who spent years in Irak in 80s to deliver various factories, weapons factories and various stuff included and the Iraqi were not able to do anything good by themselves.

I'll deal with these ones together: I never said that they were going to be as good as Romania or that Romania can't have nice things because the Iraqis have taken them. I explicitly compared them to ANZAC. However, the Syrians got the RPG-29 and loved the thing. They also realised that their inability to counter Israeli armour directly could be offset by the use of specialist, highly trained FIST teams. Therefore, RPG-29 FIST. Laith won't be as accurate nor as good as ATACMS but it will be pretty decent. The only problem is that the support tab is already crowded with good picks.

Metys/Igla may be a thing indeed but nothing exceptional, we already have the manpad in Finnish recon team.

We don't have ATGM/MANPADS elite infantry yet, only MANPADS or MANPADS recon or ATGM recon. They wouldn't be recon though, they'd need someone else to spot for them.

I am curious why F1EQ6 embaras the Kurnass and especially how.

Because France doesn't give a toss who it sells to if they'll pay cash :P. 10% more ECM, the same bombload and 2 SRAAMs instead of 4 pointless MRAAMs seems like quite the upgrade to me. More survivable and quite possibly cheaper thanks to Eugenlogic, certainly not much more expensive.

Also 70% FCS from where?

Bought from the Italians, systems pretty much available in 1991 since it's the same family as the FCS from the Centauro and all that anyone needs to do is stump up the cash. It's a 2003 deal in real life but if, with the Middle East as the new bugbear and Syria still Russian-aligned, they would sell it in 2003 they may have been okay with selling it in 1991. Besides, it's only an option, they still have better tanks than ANZAC, Canada, Norway and Denmark without it.

Sorry to spoil your fun but it's too optimistic to model Iraq or Syria in such a way and if you find a book or something about their military operational doctrine, an original view or I don't know, something coherent, I'd appreciate if you can share it.

It is optimistic, I'll admit that. It also provides a reasonably strong without being overpowering opponent for campaigns such as a classic hypothetical Golan confrontation or the Gulf War or the Iran-Iraq War. Look upon it as Wargame 4's North Korea, not brilliant in itself but an excellent catalyst nation for interesting conflicts.
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47andrej
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Re: Wargame franchise

Postby 47andrej » Mon 30 Jan 2017 19:09

steppewolf wrote:Middle East states have crap stuff;

You are keeping on triggering peoples, dont you :D

steppewolf wrote:T-55 Enigma is a joke:
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/moder ... 55-enigma/

Absolutely great article.
tanks-encyclopedia.com wrote:The Enigma was evidently a crude and cheap upgrade package.

Nice written, not biased at all.
tanks-encyclopedia.com wrote:Whilst it is generally accepted that Enigmas could survive some hits from ATGMs, they could, however, not survive hits from AMX 30s, or an AC-130 gunship strike:

On January 29th, a column of Iraqi T-55s (some of which may have been Enigmas) drove to the Saudi border, signaling an intention to surrender. As Saudi forces approached, the T-55s opened fire. An AC-130 responded to the incident and destroyed thirteen vehicles.
On January 30th, a platoon of Iraqi T-55s (some of which may have been Enigmas) engaged a Qatari Tank Company of AMX 30s to the south of Khafji. Several T-55s were knocked out, and a fourth was captured.

Maybe's and AC-130-proof tanks :roll:

steppewolf wrote:What I'd like to see added and may have some original stuff is Italy, Romania, South-Africa, Cuba, Bulgaria, Spain, heck even small Portugal may claim more originality than Iraq/Syria and whatever other Middle East states from time frame of the game.

Ridiculous statement. I'm not going to list all military areas Iraq worked on, its too silly for me.

steppewolf wrote:Middle East is a blocked path, they used to behave like today ISIS artisanal works just they have a bit better means.

Iraqi PGM strike footages from Iraq-Iran War.


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steppewolf
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Re: Wargame franchise

Postby steppewolf » Mon 30 Jan 2017 19:32

47andrej wrote:You are keeping on triggering peoples, dont you :D


Well, next time we'll play let's do it in different teams, I'll bring the Israeli deck and you a Iraqi replica (anyway all systems are in game) :D

47andrej wrote:Absolutely great article.
tanks-encyclopedia.com wrote:The Enigma was evidently a crude and cheap upgrade package.


The “T-55 Enigma” (or Enigma, for short) is the unofficial name for an upgrade standard applied to a few Iraqi T-55s. According to some Iraqis, the official name was “Al Faw”.


Give it the intended name than...it was made for parades, this is all.

47andrej wrote:Nice written, not biased at all.
tanks-encyclopedia.com wrote:Whilst it is generally accepted that Enigmas could survive some hits from ATGMs, they could, however, not survive hits from AMX 30s, or an AC-130 gunship strike:

On January 29th, a column of Iraqi T-55s (some of which may have been Enigmas) drove to the Saudi border, signaling an intention to surrender. As Saudi forces approached, the T-55s opened fire. An AC-130 responded to the incident and destroyed thirteen vehicles.
On January 30th, a platoon of Iraqi T-55s (some of which may have been Enigmas) engaged a Qatari Tank Company of AMX 30s to the south of Khafji. Several T-55s were knocked out, and a fourth was captured.

Maybe's and AC-130-proof tanks :roll:


Well, AC-130 fired in top :) As for being knocked out by Qatar AMX-30s and captured, this is not a good advertising at all ;)

47andrej wrote:
steppewolf wrote:What I'd like to see added and may have some original stuff is Italy, Romania, South-Africa, Cuba, Bulgaria, Spain, heck even small Portugal may claim more originality than Iraq/Syria and whatever other Middle East states from time frame of the game.

Ridiculous statement. I'm not going to list all military areas Iraq worked on, its too silly for me.


I read your entire topic (know your enemy ;) ) but I didn't comment because I have respect for researching work you did. But here is a thread about something else so I think I can post my opinion. Except some Western and Soviet top stuff, nothing that the original countries couldn't have used or have added in game, there is very little except some megalomaniac projects like that super gun which may prove an impressive technical achievement but lacking modern stuff like FCS may prove unrelevant tactically...I am just thinking to Dicke Berta, with some moderate success due to how big and clumsy was...it was totally unsuited against modern fortifications and too clumsy and logistically difficult to handle to bring much in the mix. Last but not the least I know a guy who worked like 15 years in Middle East in technical field in the relevant time line and everything they had was foreign, they weren't able to make even a basic T-72.

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steppewolf
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Re: Wargame franchise

Postby steppewolf » Mon 30 Jan 2017 19:44

FrangibleCover wrote:
Doctrinally supported FIST may be in every deck, heck Romania have a completely original RPG on armburst principle with thermobaric warhead which don't even deliver smoke when fired -> stealth ;)
Laith (Luna-M) in fact was modernized with Romanian expertise, same for Scuds so hardly something unique besides I don't see how this upgrade, even with improved guidance can be on par with ATCAMS, maybe Tochka can claim such a role... I know Romanian individuals who spent years in Irak in 80s to deliver various factories, weapons factories and various stuff included and the Iraqi were not able to do anything good by themselves.


I'll deal with these ones together: I never said that they were going to be as good as Romania or that Romania can't have nice things because the Iraqis have taken them. I explicitly compared them to ANZAC. However, the Syrians got the RPG-29 and loved the thing. They also realised that their inability to counter Israeli armour directly could be offset by the use of specialist, highly trained FIST teams. Therefore, RPG-29 FIST. Laith won't be as accurate nor as good as ATACMS but it will be pretty decent. The only problem is that the support tab is already crowded with good picks.


Give it HE, it's be a Lance, this is the best you can get from it.

FrangibleCover wrote:Metys/Igla may be a thing indeed but nothing exceptional, we already have the manpad in Finnish recon team.

We don't have ATGM/MANPADS elite infantry yet, only MANPADS or MANPADS recon or ATGM recon. They wouldn't be recon though, they'd need someone else to spot for them.[/quote]

I know how it works but Metys won't make much of a difference even in elite team, it's slow firing and it out ranged by any gun...I'd prefer a FAGOT-M to scare the enemy tanks.

I am curious why F1EQ6 embaras the Kurnass and especially how.

Because France doesn't give a toss who it sells to if they'll pay cash :P. 10% more ECM, the same bombload and 2 SRAAMs instead of 4 pointless MRAAMs seems like quite the upgrade to me. More survivable and quite possibly cheaper thanks to Eugenlogic, certainly not much more expensive.

FrangibleCover wrote:Bought from the Italians, systems pretty much available in 1991 since it's the same family as the FCS from the Centauro and all that anyone needs to do is stump up the cash. It's a 2003 deal in real life but if, with the Middle East as the new bugbear and Syria still Russian-aligned, they would sell it in 2003 they may have been okay with selling it in 1991. Besides, it's only an option, they still have better tanks than ANZAC, Canada, Norway and Denmark without it.


I doubt Italian FCS could be considered at 70%...based on what is this claim? TURMS is OK but some time ago our tankers trained with an Italian Ariete unit and they weren't too impressed ... probably because FCS from Romanian upgraded TR-85 is basically Leclerec's one so I doubt it's of the same quality. Probably can grant 60% but I don't think is better.

FrangibleCover wrote:
Sorry to spoil your fun but it's too optimistic to model Iraq or Syria in such a way and if you find a book or something about their military operational doctrine, an original view or I don't know, something coherent, I'd appreciate if you can share it.

It is optimistic, I'll admit that. It also provides a reasonably strong without being overpowering opponent for campaigns such as a classic hypothetical Golan confrontation or the Gulf War or the Iran-Iraq War. Look upon it as Wargame 4's North Korea, not brilliant in itself but an excellent catalyst nation for interesting conflicts.


What I don't understand is why this obsession with giving Israel something to shoot at..will be a turkey shot.

NK is a different sort tough, they live for their army...

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Re: Wargame franchise

Postby 47andrej » Mon 30 Jan 2017 20:21

steppewolf wrote:
47andrej wrote:Absolutely great article.
tanks-encyclopedia.com wrote:The Enigma was evidently a crude and cheap upgrade package.


The “T-55 Enigma” (or Enigma, for short) is the unofficial name for an upgrade standard applied to a few Iraqi T-55s. According to some Iraqis, the official name was “Al Faw”.


Give it the intended name than...it was made for parades, this is all.

Its not about name, its about unprofessional writing attitude by autor. He writes how he feels about tank.


steppewolf wrote:
47andrej wrote:
tanks-encyclopedia.com wrote:Whilst it is generally accepted that Enigmas could survive some hits from ATGMs, they could, however, not survive hits from AMX 30s, or an AC-130 gunship strike:

On January 29th, a column of Iraqi T-55s (some of which may have been Enigmas) drove to the Saudi border, signaling an intention to surrender. As Saudi forces approached, the T-55s opened fire. An AC-130 responded to the incident and destroyed thirteen vehicles.
On January 30th, a platoon of Iraqi T-55s (some of which may have been Enigmas) engaged a Qatari Tank Company of AMX 30s to the south of Khafji. Several T-55s were knocked out, and a fourth was captured.

Maybe's and AC-130-proof tanks :roll:


Well, AC-130 fired in top :) As for being knocked out by Qatar AMX-30s and captured, this is not a good advertising at all ;)

Which tank was designed to be proof versus AC/howitzer firing from gunship? Only roof ERA would give some protection versus AC fire, and that non-intentional.
As for AMX-30 i marked it red. If it's not clear at all, why bring up the story then?

steppewolf wrote:I read your entire topic (know your enemy ;) ) but I didn't comment because I have respect for researching work you did.

You did comment ;)
steppewolf wrote:But here is a thread about something else so I think I can post my opinion. Except some Western and Soviet top stuff, nothing that the original countries couldn't have used or have added in game, there is very little except some megalomaniac projects like that super gun which may prove an impressive technical achievement but lacking modern stuff like FCS may prove unrelevant tactically...I am just thinking to Dicke Berta, with some moderate success due to how big and clumsy was...it was totally unsuited against modern fortifications and too clumsy and logistically difficult to handle to bring much in the mix. Last but not the least I know a guy who worked like 15 years in Middle East in technical field in the relevant time line and everything they had was foreign, they weren't able to make even a basic T-72.

Middle East is big, no other country in ME was as developing military-wise as Iraq in WRD timeframe.

As for Asad Babil, yes it was quite inferior to T-72M1. Its however more known due to IRL events than any other T-72M modifications. Therefore more interesting for existing and potentional wargame playerbase.

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Re: Wargame franchise

Postby steppewolf » Mon 30 Jan 2017 20:33

47andrej wrote:Its not about name, its about unprofessional writing attitude by autor. He writes how he feels about tank.


I read the website from quite some time and what I knew about all Romanian models is in there and sometimes little more; considering how much time took me to find out information, I think those guys are very well documente.


47andrej wrote:Which tank was designed to be proof versus AC/howitzer firing from gunship? Only roof ERA would give some protection versus AC fire, and that non-intentional.


2 top armor ones? ;)

47andrej wrote:As for Asad Babil, yes it was quite inferior to T-72M1. Its however more known due to IRL events than any other T-72M modifications. Therefore more interesting for existing and potentional wargame playerbase.


No, it's inferior to T-72M, Czech one.

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Re: Wargame franchise

Postby Comrade_Bane » Thu 2 Feb 2017 00:21

Why are topics on this subject ALWAYS derailed by some mundane discrepancy?

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Re: Wargame franchise

Postby FrangibleCover » Thu 2 Feb 2017 01:37

Comrade_Bane wrote:Why are topics on this subject ALWAYS derailed by some mundane discrepancy?

Hey, be glad the discussion about Yugoslavia in this thread is entirely focused around the Dev effort required to add it in the next Wargame with particular reference to whether it is uniquely pretty or pretty in the same way as the rest of the Mediterranean coastline. It could be far worse.

The rest is a friendly discussion about the direction of the next Wargame (Mediterranean Coast or Med, Baath and Beyond) and the viability of a combination Middle Eastern faction in the current meta. There's no real disagreement from me that it's not great and I personally would be voting for Romania in a new poll if it were put out today. I merely think the Baathist Alliance would be interesting to have for the various campaigns it allows.
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Re: Wargame franchise

Postby antizombies_boy » Thu 2 Feb 2017 15:44

FrangibleCover wrote:
Comrade_Bane wrote:Why are topics on this subject ALWAYS derailed by some mundane discrepancy?

Hey, be glad the discussion about Yugoslavia in this thread is entirely focused around the Dev effort required to add it in the next Wargame with particular reference to whether it is uniquely pretty or pretty in the same way as the rest of the Mediterranean coastline. It could be far worse.

The rest is a friendly discussion about the direction of the next Wargame (Mediterranean Coast or Med, Baath and Beyond) and the viability of a combination Middle Eastern faction in the current meta. There's no real disagreement from me that it's not great and I personally would be voting for Romania in a new poll if it were put out today. I merely think the Baathist Alliance would be interesting to have for the various campaigns it allows.


I will be the new Trump here and I'll say "EUROPE FIRST"!! Nah, it's a joke. The problem with this game is, with correctly balance and personality, it's normal want to see every nation of the world in the game. Baathist Alliance it's not a really new deck, but, which could say that? The support units, transports and vehicles from Baathist looks good, even repeating the "endemic" military heavy forces (tanks or aircrafts you know), and a fire support squad with RPG and shock trained should be interesting.

But, and that's only my opinion, Romania-Bulgaria combo is one of the strongest showed in a proposal, and they "should" be the new Redfor nations, for a new DLC or a new title.

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