Wargame franchise

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steppewolf
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Re: Wargame franchise

Postby steppewolf » Mon 30 Jan 2017 16:54

HrcAk47 wrote:Soviet takeover of Bosphorus and Dardanelles


in Cold War plans, Romania was supposed to be involved on two alternative paths, first one was northern Italy (until early 60s) than Bosphorus and Dadanelles because Turkey joined NATO and they changed the plans.

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Re: Wargame franchise

Postby FrangibleCover » Mon 30 Jan 2017 16:58

antizombies_boy wrote:IMO next Wargame franchise title should be focused in Mediterranean Sea enviroment. Why this:

-It's a main scenario never used in Wargame (Cold War existed on Mediterranean too).
-The amount of "new" countries it could bring (Spain, Italy, Yugoslavia, Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Jordania, Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia and others could be added).
-It's possible create a good numbers of different campaings on this theatre. (Between Turkey and Greece with other allis (BF vs BF), Italy and Spain vs Romania and Bulgaria (BF vs RF), Israel and UK vs Syria and Egypt (BF vs RF), Egypt with Syria and Algeria vs Turkey with Greece and Israel (Big BF vs big RD), Algeria and Tunisia vs Egypt and Libya (RF vs RF), Yugoslavia vs Romania and Bulgaria (RF vs RF), Spain and Italy with Greece vs Egypt with Libya and Algeria (RF vs BF), these are only few examples of the possibilities, knowing that there are a big a mount of countries close one each other on this scenario).

These are my reasons.

I agree with your concept but not your reasoning. The North African factions are not particularly interesting and as Majstor says, most of your conflicts are very odd. Egypt isn't Redfor in the 80s, Spain and Italy aren't soloing an amphibious group into the Black Sea, the UK isn't standing by Israel when the US and France are not. The major fighting in the Med in WW3 is going to be Bulgarian, Soviet and IIRC Romanian forces against Greco-Turkish forces in Thrace, Italian and Austrian forces vs Czech, Hungarian and Soviet forces in Austria, Yugoslavia doing its own thing on either side, that sort of stuff. Nobody gives a toss about Tunisia.

Majstor44 wrote:Turkey and Greece on the same side, hell no

Hell yeah! They were and are both important NATO members defending the alliance's southern flank and the vulnerable Bosporus straights from a Warsaw Pact attack that would allow the Soviet Black Sea Fleet to break out into the Mediterranean and cause all sorts of havoc. Indeed, with only one US aircraft carrier to sink in the area and then a reasonably clear run down the African coast and past the single Exocet launcher defending the straight of Gibraltar, if Greece and Turkey didn't work together the Soviets had a chance of getting a SAG into the Atlantic and destroying the US Army as it crossed to defend Europe.

Much better theater would be Middle east, wars there are happening even today, and it would be cool that Eugen somehow spread the cutoff date even more, so we see more modern units.

Extending the cut-off date will just make the US pull further ahead of everyone, forcing the use of more and more stupid prototypes in an effort to maintain balance. The Mid East is good though.

HrcAk47 wrote:An interesting campaign would be Greece vs. Turkey, during which Greece changes side and joins REDFOR.

Other campaigns that could be made:

Yugoslavia vs. Italy - mountain/littoral combat around Trieste, Isonzo, Istria

Bulgaria vs. Turkey and MEDFOR - attack through the southern border while Black Sea Fleet is locked away in the Southern Med

Yugoslavia + Romania vs. USSR/Pact

Soviet takeover of Bosphorus and Dardanelles

Traditional Israel vs. Arabs.

Aside from making sure that the Arabs fighting Israel are actually 47andrej's Baathist Federation rather than Blufor Egypt and British-friendly Jordan, this is pretty much my dream Med Wargame. Oh, and Greece isn't Redfor per se, just fighting Turkey while Redfor laughs and throws peanuts.

I think this could all be done with only two terrain sets, the same as Red Dragon. One to represent the semi-arid, rocky terrain of Southern Europe and the Levant (with different houses) and one for the greener and more fertile areas of Northern Italy and inland Yugoslavia (with Southern European houses). Red Dragon's desert terrain set can come back with Levantine houses for the Golan heights. You live in the area though, you tell me.

steppewolf wrote:Middle East states have crap stuff

viewtopic.php?f=104&t=58482
There's enough here for one ANZAC style interesting faction. 8" 10 second FCS wheeled howitzer, Exported T-72AVs, mechanised 100mm AAA, a load of Brazilian stuff for some reason. It's not going to be superb but it'll be able to handle itself with a competent player and if it gets stomped by Israel I guess it's working as intended!

Oh, and Portugal is awesome and should totally come along as a DLC at least!
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Re: Wargame franchise

Postby steppewolf » Mon 30 Jan 2017 17:07

I know that thread very well.
100 mm AA? :lol: there's a reason for which those guns weren't used as AA guns since 60s
Al Fao wouldn't bring more than actual 203 mm ones in terms of HE and I have doubts that had a good enough FCS to claim 10 sec aim time
Brazilian stuff have 6 to 12 mm thick using two-layer steel plating so may not grant more than 1 FAV but may be nice indeed.

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Re: Wargame franchise

Postby Comrade_Bane » Mon 30 Jan 2017 17:15

Someone i know personally came up with a brilliant cold war setting for the next wargame. Included campaigns in the Balkans, Spain, Greece, and others. You can find it here: viewtopic.php?f=155&t=44931 (it's locked for some reason).

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Re: Wargame franchise

Postby steppewolf » Mon 30 Jan 2017 17:16

I remember that, he put a lot of work into it. I spoke with him when he wrote the campaigns and although we couldn't agreed on some parts of history it was a very enjoyable debate.

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Re: Wargame franchise

Postby morpher » Mon 30 Jan 2017 17:19

FrangibleCover wrote: and one for the greener and more fertile areas of Northern Italy


It would be just towns spaced by a couple of km.

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Re: Wargame franchise

Postby HrcAk47 » Mon 30 Jan 2017 17:36

Istria and the coastline is just amazing - rocky terrain dominated by olive groves and wineyards, old villages with houses made out of carved stone, old Austrohungarian forts, even Roman and Greek ruins strewn about. And the Slovenian-Italy border! Just beautiful! Cliffsides, canyons, viaducts, serpentine roads, tunnels...

Counterpoint would be that any form of mechanized/armored warfare on such terrain is impossible. Armored trains for Yugo when? :mrgreen:
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

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Re: Wargame franchise

Postby FrangibleCover » Mon 30 Jan 2017 17:49

steppewolf wrote:I know that thread very well.
100 mm AA? :lol: there's a reason for which those guns weren't used as AA guns since 60s
Al Fao wouldn't bring more than actual 203 mm ones in terms of HE and I have doubts that had a good enough FCS to claim 10 sec aim time
Brazilian stuff have 6 to 12 mm thick using two-layer steel plating so may not grant more than 1 FAV but may be nice indeed.

Well, if you want reasons that they're uniquely good there's the RPG-29 FIST (doctrinally supported), the Metis/Igla elite squad, the Mirage F1EQ6 which embarrasses the Kurnass (never operated by anyone else) while supported by decent SEAD, the option of a 3 missile slot and 20% ECM realistic fighter-role MiG-25 (never operated by anyone else), the cheaper DHS Mi-24P without the missiles and probably with two cards, the option of a 70% acc FCS which Israel doesn't have, the 15FAV for about 60 points T-55 Memenigma (never operated by anyone else), the 120mm mortar that ripples 4 shots like the Vasilek, the IR Kub (never operated by anyone else), the highly capable Laith which is like a Redfor ATACMS and the TOW-2s and Ataka-Vs and Kh-29Ls that will allow them to take on superheavies and occasionally win.

They have counters to Merkavas, they have counters to Nimrods (go on, risk one of your 80 point ATGM helis against one of my 60 point KS-19s. I've got another 9 in the card), they have counters to Zeldas and to Maglan and to Mesayat and to just about anything else. They're fine.

HrcAk47 wrote:Istria and the coastline is just amazing - rocky terrain dominated by olive groves and wineyards, old villages with houses made out of carved stone, old Austrohungarian forts, even Roman and Greek ruins strewn about. And the Slovenian-Italy border! Just beautiful! Cliffsides, canyons, viaducts, serpentine roads, tunnels...

Counterpoint would be that any form of mechanized/armored warfare on such terrain is impossible. Armored trains for Yugo when? :mrgreen:

I've been to Dalmatia and up into the Croatian interior a little. A lovely country in which I did not spend enough time. Question is: Is it similar enough to Romania and Southern Italy and Thrace and the Israeli coastline for them all to use one set of terrain? We're going to need someone better travelled than me to answer that question.

I think having a couple of maps in which tanks and vehicles are limited in mobility would be very interesting. Helicopters would take on a whole new importance and then MANPADS would be a default pick and suddenly you have your own little microcosmal meta. The same applies to the oft-suggested steppe style maps with very limited cover where infantry is limited and superheavies would be too easy to pick off and suddenly heavy-medium tanks are the order of the day.

morpher wrote:
FrangibleCover wrote: and one for the greener and more fertile areas of Northern Italy

It would be just towns spaced by a couple of km.

Copenhagen 2: Trillionth Battle of the Isonzo? I'd play that.
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Re: Wargame franchise

Postby steppewolf » Mon 30 Jan 2017 18:05

FrangibleCover wrote:Well, if you want reasons that they're uniquely good there's the RPG-29 FIST (doctrinally supported), the Metis/Igla elite squad, the Mirage F1EQ6 which embarrasses the Kurnass (never operated by anyone else) while supported by decent SEAD, the option of a 3 missile slot and 20% ECM realistic fighter-role MiG-25 (never operated by anyone else), the cheaper DHS Mi-24P without the missiles and probably with two cards, the option of a 70% acc FCS which Israel doesn't have, the 15FAV for about 60 points T-55 Memenigma (never operated by anyone else), the 120mm mortar that ripples 4 shots like the Vasilek, the IR Kub (never operated by anyone else), the highly capable Laith which is like a Redfor ATACMS and the TOW-2s and Ataka-Vs and Kh-29Ls that will allow them to take on superheavies and occasionally win.


Have you bothered to read about T-55 Enigma article? Btw, some Chinese tanks used that armor aswell, it wasn't even standardized..at best would add +1 or 2 FAV to base T-55. It's nothing meme there besides the looks of it which is Christmas tree style like is the fashion with weapons in the respective area :)

Doctrinally supported FIST may be in every deck, heck Romania have a completely original RPG on armburst principle with thermobaric warhead which don't even deliver smoke when fired -> stealth ;)

Metys/Igla may be a thing indeed but nothing exceptional, we already have the manpad in Finnish recon team.

I am curious why F1EQ6 embaras the Kurnass and especially how.

Laith (Luna-M) in fact was modernized with Romanian expertise, same for Scuds so hardly something unique besides I don't see how this upgrade, even with improved guidance can be on par with ATCAMS, maybe Tochka can claim such a role... I know Romanian individuals who spent years in Irak in 80s to deliver various factories, weapons factories and various stuff included and the Iraqi were not able to do anything good by themselves. Also 70% FCS from where? Sorry to spoil your fun but it's too optimistic to model Iraq or Syria in such a way and if you find a book or something about their military operational doctrine, an original view or I don't know, something coherent, I'd appreciate if you can share it.

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Re: Wargame franchise

Postby nuke92 » Mon 30 Jan 2017 18:14

Yugo developed KOL-15 for them, 4 round ATACMS.
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