Strong/Viable Nations, Meta

Senseo1990
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Strong/Viable Nations, Meta

Postby Senseo1990 » Sun 5 Mar 2017 20:33

Alright, so I finally bought Red Dragon after feeling the hype for Steel Division (good move there Eugen :geek: )

Now Im feeling a bit lost. While I did play EE and ALB and know the basics, it is always helpful for me to have a rough guideline on what the meta is and then continue to expand my knowledge on that basis.

Hence, Id like to know which factions and coalitions are currently on the stronger side and which are rather weak (non-dlc factions though, I already heard rumours that the DLC factions are somewhat OP and for now im not looking to buy any of them).

Preferably in some sort of list, one for BLUFOR and one for REDFOR. Id like to avoid a discussion on whether RED or BLUE is stronger overall.

Additionally, I remember from EE and ALB that there were metas centered around certain unit types. IIRC there was the Autocannon meta in EE at some point and the ATGM meta in ALB. Is there anything similar in Red Dragon right now, or is it the "all unit" meta most of us desire?

Im sorry if I missed a thread with the same exact topic. I didnt find one while browsing the forums

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Re: Strong/Viable Nations, Meta

Postby urogard » Sun 5 Mar 2017 20:51

Superheavies are the latest rage

PACT side:
USSR has expensive units but I'd say it's the best deck for people to start using
I'd personally argue Entente (CSSR/Yugo) is better, but that's a matter of preference (you said no DLC, still putting it here though for others)
Eastern Block is still pretty decent, esp with recent moderna buff and despite availability bonus removal.
CSSR national is imho also a very decent option (though nowhere near for serious play, but for the most part has everything you might reasonably need for a game, missing ASFs but planes are optional anyway)

NATO side:
USA, despite all the crap it gets, it's still a decent start, CEV+Marines+LVTP AGL clears forests better than any other NATO country can (except maybe ISR with their AGL rofl-Merkava transports)
UK armored, hey 4 Challenger 2's is nothing to laugh at
Commonwealth is decent since you have a great selection of everything (inf, tanks, planes, arty, aa), most recent buffs in the last half a year would be getting 3 chally 2's, 2 nukewarks (4x 1000kg bombs)
South korea gets a special mention, avail bonus gives you 3 high end arties per card, 3 high end SEAD with MRAAMs per card, 3 upvetted AMRAAM carriers per card, meh infantry options and tanks, but you can make it work with your other assets, but far from meta deck.

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Re: Strong/Viable Nations, Meta

Postby 4455 » Sun 5 Mar 2017 21:48

What sort of Gameplay do you prefer? Conquest/Destruction/ Teamgames or 1v1

Senseo1990
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Re: Strong/Viable Nations, Meta

Postby Senseo1990 » Sun 5 Mar 2017 21:56

4455 wrote:What sort of Gameplay do you prefer? Conquest/Destruction/ Teamgames or 1v1


Whoops, forgot to mention that :?

I usually play Conquest Teamgames.

urogard wrote:Superheavies are the latest rage

PACT side:
USSR has expensive units but I'd say it's the best deck for people to start using
I'd personally argue Entente (CSSR/Yugo) is better, but that's a matter of preference (you said no DLC, still putting it here though for others)
Eastern Block is still pretty decent, esp with recent moderna buff and despite availability bonus removal.
CSSR national is imho also a very decent option (though nowhere near for serious play, but for the most part has everything you might reasonably need for a game, missing ASFs but planes are optional anyway)

NATO side:
USA, despite all the crap it gets, it's still a decent start, CEV+Marines+LVTP AGL clears forests better than any other NATO country can (except maybe ISR with their AGL rofl-Merkava transports)
UK armored, hey 4 Challenger 2's is nothing to laugh at
Commonwealth is decent since you have a great selection of everything (inf, tanks, planes, arty, aa), most recent buffs in the last half a year would be getting 3 chally 2's, 2 nukewarks (4x 1000kg bombs)
South korea gets a special mention, avail bonus gives you 3 high end arties per card, 3 high end SEAD with MRAAMs per card, 3 upvetted AMRAAM carriers per card, meh infantry options and tanks, but you can make it work with your other assets, but far from meta deck.


Thank you very much! Great post (:

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Re: Strong/Viable Nations, Meta

Postby Mako » Sun 5 Mar 2017 23:11

Red:

USSR has a very large amount of high end powerful units in all categories, however their mid and low end units tend to be less inspiring than average. Quite a few unique units with multiple capabilities and without direct counterparts that can be very very strong if used correctly.

Etente has a lot of very good medium range units, their ~100 pt tanks are the best in the game and they have great infantry AT power on their shock and elites. Their AA is one of the best in the game, and is mostly immune to radar. Support is very good, Plamen is a very useful unit. They also get an amazing recon tank that is very hard to kill. In close range knife fights, this coalition is very hard to beat, they have lots of affordable and deadly units. They do struggle with superheavies, their best tanks aren't top tier, and their ATGMs are bad. If you can't get into close range in forests or with smoke you will probably lose.

Baltic Front is a very versatile deck, very good cheap units and overall high mobility and firepower. Good ATGMs with the Spike and TOW-2. Very good recon tab. Jaakari 90 are the best line infantry and are available in very large numbers. The XA185 KT is a beastly glass cannon of an IFV. OP Mig-29s in the skies for anti air.

NSWP somewhat less good now days than it was in the past. Infantry are not actually that great any more, unable to deal with the Merkava 2A. Tanks are alright. Support is alright. Generally mediocre IMO.

Red Dragons are just pretty bad, would not recommend. Too many gaps, not enough strengths.


Blue:

USA/NORAD is surprisingly strong, possibly the best deck for countering lots of heavy armor. Very good AA with the Patriot. Quite a few very good/super units: M3A2, Longbow, F-18C, M1A2, Patriot. Infantry is acceptable, IFVs are good. Air is good, recon is good rangers are best in class.

Eurocorps is a strong deck, great shock infantry + transorts, lines are mediocre + don't have very good IFV choices. Tanks are good. Recon is good. Support is okay, AA is lacking. AH is good. Air is okay, Rafale is best fighter but the bombers and AGM planes are bad. Has many cost effective units overall, but some holes.

CW/UK are very good. Amazing infantry, very solid armor. AA is decent, Stormer is very strong, Rapier FSA is very good in terms of DPS, lacking in range and survivability. Lots of sturdy decent units, but not a huge amount of versatility, strong conventional units.

Blue Dragons is better than it is given credit for. Interesting armor, with Kyu Maru and Nanayons providing good dps with weaker armor. Amazing IFVs with the KAFVs. Good recon, good IR AA. Bad airforce.
If there's two kinds of players, those that like challenges and those that want a fair game, pubstomps should make everyone happy.

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Re: Strong/Viable Nations, Meta

Postby Sleksa » Sun 5 Mar 2017 23:35

Senseo1990 wrote:
I usually play Conquest Teamgames.


Entente is very likely currently the best possible deck out there, second best being baltic front / israel, and tertiary nswp/commonwealth.

Some of the worst are currently blue/red dragons and scandi, with the other coalition choices being somewhere in the middle.

Building a deck should likely go something like this:

Log
1 car cv
1 helo-transported infantry command
1 car logistics card
1 heli logistics card

Inf
1 atgm squad
2 cards of high-ap launcher infantry
1 card of cost-efficient infantry

Tank
1 card of cheap spamtanks (less than 40 pts)
2 cards of superheavy tanks (~22 armor, ~23 AP)
1 card of medium tanks (~80-90 points)

Support
1 anti-plane aa card (i-hawk, osa akm)
1 anti-heli ir card (ito 90, crotale, tunguskas)
1 backup/mixed aa card
1 mortar card

Plane
1 sead card
2 atgm cards
1 bomber card

With those in the deck you should be fairly well off. Fill the rest of Ap as you see fit, would recommend atleast 1 squad of recon infantry and 1 recon heli card as well as some more fodder cards like asu-85
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Re: Strong/Viable Nations, Meta

Postby Mako » Sun 5 Mar 2017 23:51

I think it's more important to have a capability checklist more than a shopping list of unit types.

For example cheap tanks, are there to provide fire support against enemy infantry and APCs often a few cheap vehicles or an IFV can do the same job better for the same price. Ex: 3 10 pt ASU vs 1 30 pt BMP-686 before the asu nerf.

Some decks accomplish the same capability differently.
If there's two kinds of players, those that like challenges and those that want a fair game, pubstomps should make everyone happy.

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Re: Strong/Viable Nations, Meta

Postby Mister Maf » Mon 6 Mar 2017 00:10

I could make a few points of minor contention with the above posts, but the advice already given is pretty accurate. So instead, I'll point you to some guides, since ALB and EE experience tend not to carry over super well to Red Dragon from my observations.

Start here: How to get started with Wargame – This is a great guide that explains the fundamental strategies you should employ to win.

Razzman's new player guide – After you read the above guide and experiment a bit with what you learned, take a look at some of Razzman's videos. He explains things really quickly, which is why I don't recommend watching them first, but he explains some of the hidden mechanics in more detail than the above guide.

A Czechoslovakian Unit Guide – My own Czech unit guide will detail every unit in the Czech armory. Even if you don't plan on playing as the Czechs, you'll learn a few things about deck building in general along the way.

A Small East German Unit Guide – Flieger's DDR unit guide is a bit more outdated than my CZ one, with the stats on many units no longer reflecting their current values. Despite this, the advice inside still holds true.

Actual accuracy bonus from veterancy – The armory lies to your face about the accuracy bonus units get from veterancy levels. This chart has the real figures.

List of all the maps with pictures – Exactly what it says on the tin.

Keyboard shortcut quick reference sheet – I strongly recommend rebinding these to a layout more intuitive for you, but here are all the defaults. The most important hotkeys are Evac, Reverse, Fire Pos, Fast Move, Attack, Unload, Split, and Regroup. Smoke and Info Panel are also very useful to have on-hand.

Chat flag tags – Before you ask. Mostly useful for deck names so you can quickly find them in the game lobby.
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Re: Strong/Viable Nations, Meta

Postby KattiValk » Mon 6 Mar 2017 00:37

Welcome to RD, I hope you enjoy your time. Avoid Warchat when they're spamming neo-Nazi rhetoric and try to not get too upset at imbalances and forgotten issues.

BLUEFOR:
  • Israel: Still a bit of a meme even after nerfs, Merkava IFV spam and Maglans are simply ridiculous when played to best effect. Boasting strong APCs (mostly Zelda, the high armor ones are of limited use due to cost inefficiency) and good infantry backed by the best general purpose air tab in the game and incredibly forgiving tanks, it's hard to go wrong with this deck. Strong in pretty much all environments, though it tends to struggle slightly without air superiority.
  • UK/Commonwealth: Though it enjoyed a brief stint as one of the staple meta decks, the DLC nations kind of left it behind slightly due in large part by its still subpar recon tab. It's still pretty strong with spam Commandos and the three per card Challenger. UK standalone is useful for compact (read: overcrowded) games where the infantry grind is not a vital commitment. Strong in tight lanes where its lack of high-end combat recon is not a major issue, and effective in small games (1v1/2v2).
  • US/NORAD: Slowly and methodically buffed slightly with every patch, the Americans are now quite a ways beyond the shadow they once were. While not necessarily a meta defining deck, you can use the US and NORAD to its strengths of tank removal, force multipliers, and low-cost infantry potential. NORAD is great for beginner players who do not grasp the finer aspects of the game due to the good options it has, but the US alone has a higher skill ceiling (and floor) in many cases with greater potential with the +5AP and use of its unicorns. Effective in 2v2 and up, especially in a supporting role.
  • Eurocorps: Not nearly the beast it was early into the game's life, EC has lost a lot of its low-end infantry potential with the Jager nerf. Still, it is a fairly good deck for having units that perform well on their own with plenty of options to outplay the opponent. Its strengths lie in fast French assets (especially with its wheeled assets in the recon section and some of the best low-cost AA in the game) and forgiving German IFV combos backed by good superheavies (though the rest of the tank tab is rather lackluster). Effective in most situations, though it is not easy to use to full potential and is overshadowed by DLC coalitions.
  • Blue Dragons: Like the US, quite a bit of help has been applied to BD over time since the NATO Mech nerfs. It's never been a staple meta deck, but it has fairly good low-end options and works well enough when played well. Its viability will always be suspect so long as the heavy meta exists, but it manages. Effective in small games though has difficulty dealing with heavies regardless of fighting intensity.
  • Scandinavia: Another victim of the heavy meta, Scandi's excellent low-end options simply do not make up for its inability to handle superheavies. Still, when played intelligently it can manage. Decent in most game sizes, but cannot duel across fields or against aggressive superheavy play.
  • Dutchcorps: Effectively a slightly boosted Germany with some US style assets, it is effectively inferior to Eurocorps. Passable, but hardly anything special.
  • Landjut: An even less inspiring twist to Germany, and pretty much pointless.

REDFOR:
  • Entente: The meme-heavy Yugo DLC coalition. Its infantry grind is pretty much king with its spammable high suppression IFVs. It can be extremely aggressive with its strong recon rank and boasts strong tabs across all fronts. It only really struggles when playing against traditional superheavies across smoked fields. Strong on all fronts, it's hard to go wrong provided you spam what the coalition has in spades.
  • Baltic Front: The other red DLC entry, the Baltics boast a strong infantry grind with Jaakari and have good options for pretty much everything (especially with the Israeli Spike, which is borderline OP). While not as spammy as Entente, the Bushmaster II IFVs are incredibly strong and allow for quick punishes for poor flank guard and its tank assets are some of the best in most price ranges. Combined with top tier ASF and AGM options, the Baltics aren't hurting in any tab. Strong in most environments and works at all game sizes.
  • NSWP: One of the more recent ex-meta picks (and one of the longer standing), NSWP is now somewhat overshadowed by red's DLC options, but still holds its own as a strong coalition. Its once nearly unmatched infantry grind potential has been heavily nerfed, but its supporting assets still are comprised of good picks in just about every category. NSWP cannot compete across open fields nearly as well as the Entente and Baltics but still poses a strong force in short range areas. Strong in small games and effective in larger games when engaging in forested areas.
  • USSR: Still hurting from a lack of the good bread and butter NSWP boasts, the Soviets are still not to be trifled with. The USSR deck contains the most top tier force multipliers out of any coalition and can stomp pretty much any deck in a tight, head on collision. Its support assets are some of the best and its weak grind and low end are compensated by incredibly strong high ends and unicorns. Strong in bigger team games and currently holds the best national W/L rate (undisputed champion since release), though less effective in smaller games when points must be stretched thin.
  • Red Dragon: Ironically simultaneously the poster boy and one of the worse coalitions in the game, RD is still rather poor at competitive in the current meta. It has quite a few interesting units and unicorns, but those draws cannot make up for the finicky at best infantry game and hard to use tank options. Decent in small to medium games, with a very high skill floor, but not much return.

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Re: Strong/Viable Nations, Meta

Postby Sleksa » Mon 6 Mar 2017 01:23

Mako wrote:I think it's more important to have a capability checklist more than a shopping list of unit types.

For example cheap tanks, are there to provide fire support against enemy infantry and APCs often a few cheap vehicles or an IFV can do the same job better for the same price. Ex: 3 10 pt ASU vs 1 30 pt BMP-686 before the asu nerf.

Some decks accomplish the same capability differently.


Kind of but not in your particular example since tanks are not solely for shooting but also for tanking shots, where higher armor makes them massively more effective than low armored vehicles. Same also goes for higher cost vehicles like that bmp 686 since it's cost in asu's will buy twice as much hp per $.

Personally I also consider most of the ifv transports as a bad choice since they also cut down on infantry availability, raise the cost of calling infantry and, and generally get outperformed by same money spent on vehicles or cheap tanks.


KattiValk wrote:
On entente...

It only really struggles when playing against traditional superheavies across smoked fields


They are hardly at a disadvantage in a conventional (heavy infested forest vs heavy infested forest) situation due to coalitions generally having a top superheavy followed by a secondary that usually drops 2-5 points in ap/armor combo (m1a2 vs whichever 20 armor 23 ap version comes after or chally 2 & chally 1.3). On the other hand entente actually has 2 top superheavy cards which are 1 point away from the golden standard, meaning they suffer less from losing their supers than most coalitions do. And this is all without considering the single greatest f&f atgms on the soup colibri with a efficient evac pattern, the eryx 2.0's, apilas 2.0's and other high ap deterrents.

With the M1T being buffed, the only existential disadvantage the entente has anymore is in a somewhat lackluster recon infantry choices, which is still above average to half the other coalitions in the game. However this isn't much of a problem as the recon tab overall remains above everything else with nod's stealth tanks.
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