About the promised buffs to RD

urogard
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Re: About the promised buffs to RD

Postby urogard » Fri 12 May 2017 19:07

throwaway wrote:I think your appraisal of BD is a bit too black-and-white. You've decided that they're competitive, so all their tabs are the bee's knees and their only lack is that there's no fancy stuff and that hawks should be a bit cheaper. No, they actually have a lot of weaknesses that you're overlooking. But they're there, they (for the most part) don't prevent the deck from being competitive, and you'll only remember them when you no longer like BD. RD is the opposite - everything is a weakness, including the line infantry (equipped with the best IFV in the game currently) and the bomber (second-best in the game).

It is black-and-white face to face to the post I quoted calling for their buffs on account of not receiving attention in this thread.
To which I proceed to mention all the things that BD does have which RD lacks. Which even you admit, in RD everything is a weakness.
BD is an average coalition throughout, not excelling in anything but having no weakness other than what I already mentioned.

I also said their units are competitively priced, I haven't claimed even once that they have a competitive deck. A competitive deck doesn't have a single disqualifying weakness. If it has a disqualifying weakness, it's disqualified from being competitive (duh). BD isn't competitive because it has such a weakness. But all of their core units are priced competitively.

RD has a bomber which is second-best in the game? Which one is that?
I know of only 1 bomber which is even worth mentioning in RD and at 1 per card it's not even in top 5 bombers in the game.

throwaway wrote:BDs infantry tab has a problem in that they lack high AP options. Your only option is haebyung 90, and because they're inefficient you'll only see them in numbers (or at all) after it's clear that the enemy is using tanks aggressively. Unlike, say, LSTR or legion 90, which are great units on their own and guaranteed to be around.

I have to disagree 100%

Haebung 90' - 15 Men with PzF 3 70% Acc 24 AP => 30 + 5/10 (transport) => 35/40 pts
LSTR cost 50 pts (25-35% more) and they can't deal with infantry on their own, they are support infantry, means you can't send them alone because if they meet 2 line squads or 1 shock squad they will die.

Never have I met a tank which Seal/Kutei couldn't handle and not having either Haebung 90' far away or any of my own tanks. So there goes your theorycraft.

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Re: About the promised buffs to RD

Postby Fade2Gray » Fri 12 May 2017 19:17

So I've been managing to play a lot of BLUFOR as of late (for the first time ever, I'm actually breaking even in games as BLU/RED. Been 1-3% more REDFOR since... forever) and playing the devil out of EC. I'm loving it mostly because of one unit, the AMX-10 RC. This thing is stupid crazy good. Cheap, spammable, fast, amazing autonomy(pretty much you never have to refuel them), good range and accuracy, and enough AP to threaten a lot of things. I've lost count of how many super heavies I've mauled with them because they expose their flanks to some RCs waiting on the wings or because I just race forward while they are shooting it out with something else and get a side shot.

Then I look at RD's recon tanks and I'm just... sad. The 62G is pretty nice, but the 62-1 and the Type 63 both just pale in comparison to the RC. The 62-1, for being 5 pts more expensive, is just... total trash in comparison to it. The 63... well it has a better MG and smaller size? Both of these need a price buff or something.

If RD needs something to really shine, it should be the recon tab. Sadly, their recon tab doesn't really offer much.

urogard wrote:Haebung 90' - 15 Men with PzF 3 70% Acc 24 AP => 30 + 5/10 (transport) => 35/40 pts
LSTR cost 50 pts (25-35% more) and they can't deal with infantry on their own, they are support infantry, means you can't send them alone because if they meet 2 line squads or 1 shock squad they will die.

Never have I met a tank which Seal/Kutei couldn't handle and not having either Haebung 90' far away or any of my own tanks. So there goes your theorycraft.


Why are you comparing Haebung 90 to LSTR? Legion are the better comparison, Legion can maul tanks and infantry alike, where as Haebung struggle to fight enemy infantry on their own. LSTR are great skimmers/flankers that should be operating in support of the schutzen spam. Haebung is extremely niche, and as said, you only really bring them out when there's heavy tank usage, where as Legion/LSTR are fielded plenty on their own because they are so good. You missed the point, big time, again.
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Re: About the promised buffs to RD

Postby urogard » Fri 12 May 2017 19:25

Fade2Gray wrote:
urogard wrote:Haebung 90' - 15 Men with PzF 3 70% Acc 24 AP => 30 + 5/10 (transport) => 35/40 pts
LSTR cost 50 pts (25-35% more) and they can't deal with infantry on their own, they are support infantry, means you can't send them alone because if they meet 2 line squads or 1 shock squad they will die.

Never have I met a tank which Seal/Kutei couldn't handle and not having either Haebung 90' far away or any of my own tanks. So there goes your theorycraft.


Why are you comparing Haebung 90 to LSTR? Legion are the better comparison, Legion can maul tanks and infantry alike, where as Haebung struggle to fight enemy infantry on their own.

Throwaway brought LSTR up, not me
Legion Rifle and MG is literally IDENTICAL to each other. How one can fight infantry while the other struggles is beyond me.
+5 pts tax for the 15-man squads, which makes it costlier but allows for better survival. Haebung 90' is one of the few units in the game where the tax is not like a giant middle finger. (the other used to be Lu Zhandui)

60% Acc 25 AP 1,050m range vs 70% Acc 24 AP 700m
I fail to see the difference in the armaments, they are the same.
There's no weapon in the game which can shoot at more than 700m which can't shoot at more than 1,050m which you need to take out with an RPG. And when you're panicked or have tanks rolling close by then instashot RPG is actually better than the GUID missile which can miss if you show up and get shot at by tanks and stunned before the missile lands.
So again, both anti tank weapons are identical. Saying Legion can maul tanks while Haebung 90' can't is a whole different level of autism.

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Razzmann
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Re: About the promised buffs to RD

Postby Razzmann » Fri 12 May 2017 19:46

urogard wrote:they can't deal with infantry on their own

Outside of SF and top tier shock infantry, they very well can.

urogard wrote:they are support infantry, means you can't send them alone because if they meet 2 line squads or 1 shock squad they will die.

Are you saying a single Haebyung 90 squad won't lose to 2 line infantry squads?

They may be support infantry, but they are certainly not as bad against infantry as you make them out to be.

Also you indirectly save points for aa when buying LStR.

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Re: About the promised buffs to RD

Postby throwaway » Fri 12 May 2017 19:59

urogard wrote:Never have I met a tank which Seal/Kutei couldn't handle and not having either Haebung 90' far away or any of my own tanks. So there goes your theorycraft.


Spoiler : :
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Urogard, meet merkava. Merkava, meet urogard. I pick the most obvious example, but there are plenty of high-armor units that a CG2 isn't enough for. Sure, a tank can bail your infantry out, as can having haebyung 90 on every front where a btr-t may show up. It's just inefficient.

urogard wrote:Haebung 90' - 15 Men with PzF 3 70% Acc 24 AP => 30 + 5/10 (transport) => 35/40 pts
LSTR cost 50 pts (25-35% more) and they can't deal with infantry on their own, they are support infantry, means you can't send them alone because if they meet 2 line squads or 1 shock squad they will die.


LSTR and haebyung are both support in the sense that you can't grind 10pt infantry with them. LSTR bring a lot more to the table than Haebyung - range, speed, a manpad. You can't mix in as many of them into your force because of their cost/anti-inf ratio, true, but you don't have to - NSWP has 20pt 24AP shock. BD does not. Like, unless you go out of your way to mix in this specific slightly inefficient PzF 3 unit, you infantry will entirely consist of low-rof, medium-AP stuff that many tanks can keep poking. Which is a far riskier strat against other decks - you're not even safe while retreating from a forest against half of blue, because of eryx's lolrange.

urogard wrote:RD has a bomber which is second-best in the game? Which one is that?
I know of only 1 bomber which is even worth mentioning in RD and at 1 per card it's not even in top 5 bombers in the game.


That's exactly the kind of exaggeration I was talking about.

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Re: About the promised buffs to RD

Postby throwaway » Fri 12 May 2017 20:58

urogard wrote:60% Acc 25 AP 1,050m range vs 70% Acc 24 AP 700m
I fail to see the difference in the armaments, they are the same.


There's a big difference between ranges of infantry AT, it's a lot easier to sideshot stuff (and consequently a lot riskier/harder to move tanks around), you get a lot of range scaling that counteracts accuracy loss from panic, and sometimes you even shoot twice because the other guy has to back up so much. People love to bring up stunning with a GUID missile airborne, but it basically never happens - most units will barely be aimed by the time the last hitroll happens, much less inflicting the needed suppression. Maybe you could pull it off with a pivads.

Fade2Gray wrote:So I've been managing to play a lot of BLUFOR as of late (for the first time ever, I'm actually breaking even in games as BLU/RED. Been 1-3% more REDFOR since... forever) and playing the devil out of EC. I'm loving it mostly because of one unit, the AMX-10 RC. This thing is stupid crazy good. Cheap, spammable, fast, amazing autonomy(pretty much you never have to refuel them), good range and accuracy, and enough AP to threaten a lot of things. I've lost count of how many super heavies I've mauled with them because they expose their flanks to some RCs waiting on the wings or because I just race forward while they are shooting it out with something else and get a side shot.


Both amx-10s are broken pls nerf

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Re: About the promised buffs to RD

Postby Fade2Gray » Fri 12 May 2017 21:00

throwaway wrote:
Fade2Gray wrote:So I've been managing to play a lot of BLUFOR as of late (for the first time ever, I'm actually breaking even in games as BLU/RED. Been 1-3% more REDFOR since... forever) and playing the devil out of EC. I'm loving it mostly because of one unit, the AMX-10 RC. This thing is stupid crazy good. Cheap, spammable, fast, amazing autonomy(pretty much you never have to refuel them), good range and accuracy, and enough AP to threaten a lot of things. I've lost count of how many super heavies I've mauled with them because they expose their flanks to some RCs waiting on the wings or because I just race forward while they are shooting it out with something else and get a side shot.


Both amx-10s are broken pls nerf


Nnnoooo....! I love muh RCs! :o
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Re: About the promised buffs to RD

Postby urogard » Fri 12 May 2017 21:21

Razzmann wrote:
urogard wrote:they can't deal with infantry on their own

Outside of SF and top tier shock infantry, they very well can.

2x LSTR is 70-100 pts (depending if you include transport or not)
That's 5-6 squads of line infantry or 3-4 squads of shock infantry
No, they very well can't
at least not in vanilla RD, maybe in your mod they can, dunno never tried it

Razzmann wrote:Also you indirectly save points for aa when buying LStR.

Let's not open that can of worms again, 4 HE is useless for planes.
Saying you save points for AA when buying LStR is like saying you save points for tanks when you buy a Moderna.
One buys LStR because they carry manpads, everything else is extra and is used only in emergencies.

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Re: About the promised buffs to RD

Postby urogard » Fri 12 May 2017 21:23

throwaway wrote:
urogard wrote:60% Acc 25 AP 1,050m range vs 70% Acc 24 AP 700m
I fail to see the difference in the armaments, they are the same.


There's a big difference between ranges of infantry AT, it's a lot easier to sideshot stuff (and consequently a lot riskier/harder to move tanks around), you get a lot of range scaling that counteracts accuracy loss from panic, and sometimes you even shoot twice because the other guy has to back up so much. People love to bring up stunning with a GUID missile airborne, but it basically never happens - most units will barely be aimed by the time the last hitroll happens, much less inflicting the needed suppression. Maybe you could pull it off with a pivads.

So basically they are the same, got it.
So just say right from the start that they maul tanks as well as Legion 90' does.

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Re: About the promised buffs to RD

Postby Razzmann » Fri 12 May 2017 21:41

urogard wrote:Let's not open that can of worms again, 4 HE is useless for planes.

Go on, keep digging the hole you are in.

urogard wrote:One buys LStR because they carry manpads, everything else is extra and is used only in emergencies.

Speak for yourself.

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