Eugen u want to earn (more) money with that game? Read this.

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McNash
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Re: Eugen u want to earn (more) money with that game? Read this.

Postby McNash » Tue 22 Nov 2016 20:34

Kvantovy wrote:Modding possibilities like C&C: Generals ZH had, would be a godsent imho. RTS fans would voluntarily fix all AoA problems and enrich it with new units, factions, maps and maybe even new interesting campaigns.


A mod toolkit already exists, it's just that next to nobody modded the game, and even less people bothered posting the tutorials about how to do things because everyone hates software documentation.
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Re: Eugen u want to earn (more) money with that game? Read this.

Postby ALPHIVE » Wed 23 Nov 2016 22:24

Wargame is so awesome

I really can not believe there is no map editor, i just hope devs will deploy this one day, and when you have map editor, be sure you will have tutorials make by people, in all the games like that you have people (like me for exemple) that would make tutorial about it

Safe if they want to make pay it, it doesnt bother me at all, but make his own map is something totally awesome, and i think about Call to Arms, Command Conquer, theses game where you can make it and that are still alive

Fight on the same maps can be boring, i know some friends that love this game but stopped it because there was not new map

so just hope it will be released

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Re: Eugen u want to earn (more) money with that game? Read this.

Postby McNash » Thu 24 Nov 2016 06:48

ALPHIVE wrote:Wargame is so awesome

I really can not believe there is no map editor, i just hope devs will deploy this one day, and when you have map editor, be sure you will have tutorials make by people, in all the games like that you have people (like me for exemple) that would make tutorial about it

Safe if they want to make pay it, it doesnt bother me at all, but make his own map is something totally awesome, and i think about Call to Arms, Command Conquer, theses game where you can make it and that are still alive

Fight on the same maps can be boring, i know some friends that love this game but stopped it because there was not new map

so just hope it will be released


Wargame? I think you posted in the wrong forum :?

The only thing developers need to do to fix the game is double the hp of all units, that may make combat actually good, just saying.
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Re: Eugen u want to earn (more) money with that game? Read this.

Postby Megiddo » Thu 24 Nov 2016 11:10

McNash wrote:
The only thing developers need to do to fix the game is double the hp of all units, that may make combat actually good, just saying.



Ah, the idea made its way it seems :D

Yeah, i also really think that the HP of all units should be doubled, just like their price (x1.5/x1.75). Then, the last thing to do imo, would be to realign some damage values, but only for the 2 or 3 best units of the game. Last thing, some sort of occlusion or obstruction value has to be implemented for the walls, the rocks, the houses, in a word all the concrete scenery elements...they have to obstruct the LoS and consequently the shots, depending on the caliber. At least till their destruction for the ones that can be destroyed. If we take a close look, they'll also have to do that for Wargame as a next step.

It's sad and i somewhat feel sorry for Eugen teams. the game has otherwise a good potential and could use some more big patches or an expansion, that would allow to finish it and implement the features needed to retrieve the good old AoW feeling and glory (armors, ambush for infantry in the forests, some tweaks for the formations and commands...) in a modern shell.

Don't give up Eugen, a failure does not have to prevent you from trying and improve the game.

Still looking forward to seeing some good news concerning AoA :)
That's the saddest part of the story. I was getting used to think, after nearly three decades of its existence, that the word "Strategy" was the main cornerstone of the RTS genre and golden age.

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Re: Eugen u want to earn (more) money with that game? Read this.

Postby McNash » Thu 24 Nov 2016 15:56

Increasing the price of the units will effectively kill the entire reason why the units may get a buff.
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Re: Eugen u want to earn (more) money with that game? Read this.

Postby Megiddo » Thu 24 Nov 2016 17:41

I don't think so.

As we said in your other "Act of Aggression 2 ideas" topic, it could only advantage a little more unit preservation and micro on the battlefield, specially in early game. The HP buff will still be present, even if the prices are reevaluated.

We can see that the economy of the game is quite comfortable early enough. Currently the game is encouraging the rushes, the basic spams, quick expansion and rapid tech researches. Too early in the game, without progressivity. As a proof, we made several threads about the tier 1 gameplay phase missing for example.

Then, we can make another observation to comfort this idea : The problems with the formations : they're too big, too early, and we end up with blob fights. groups are too big to cross a bridge or find their way in narrow passages, given the pathfinding and formations issues. We end up with blob fights ending in 10 seconds and we have a quite poor control on them. Microing more little groups cause the units will cost more, but with better HP levels, will improve the combat gameplay and the formations' handling. with all units.

In addition to that, higher prices will also advantage the progressivity of the map occupation and reinforcement phases. We would have less local blob fights, ending in 10 seconds and leaving a vast empty map for a minute or two. Also less turtling and mass groups idling on the map in the last third of the games, in SP or MP. Instead of that, little skirmishes will pop out at several places on the map and will last longer. The reinforcement phases will be more progressive. This progressivity will also impact the counters, the snowball effects and the frontline movements.

Finally, higher prices but better HP levels will benefit to the engine and the response time of the units. All of them. The population stays infinite and so the gameplay will still be influenced by brute force economy as you said, like all "good old" RTSs, no problem on that... but the number of units on the field will grow in a more progressive way. The combat will gain some form of persistence and will grow more progressively all other the map, while preserving a better sense of tactical combat. Both at early game and later. The player will also have more critical unit production choices to make, cause the combat will still last while the reinforcements, less numerous, will be produced and driven to the field...

As we said, we could finally find a battlefield pace fitting with the economic pace of the game. That's a strong feeling about AoA, since the first beta. I sincerely hope that those suggestions are evaluated somehow, and that some patches could enhance the game a bit more. It's certainly doable.
That's the saddest part of the story. I was getting used to think, after nearly three decades of its existence, that the word "Strategy" was the main cornerstone of the RTS genre and golden age.

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Re: Eugen u want to earn (more) money with that game? Read this.

Postby McNash » Thu 24 Nov 2016 18:14

Megiddo wrote:I don't think so.

As we said in your other "Act of Aggression 2 ideas" topic, it could only advantage a little more unit preservation and micro on the battlefield, specially in early game. The HP buff will still be present, even if the prices are reevaluated.

We can see that the economy of the game is quite comfortable early enough. Currently the game is encouraging the rushes, the basic spams, quick expansion and rapid tech researches. Too early in the game, without progressivity. As a proof, we made several threads about the tier 1 gameplay phase missing for example.

Then, we can make another observation to comfort this idea : The problems with the formations : they're too big, too early, and we end up with blob fights. groups are too big to cross a bridge or find their way in narrow passages, given the pathfinding and formations issues. We end up with blob fights ending in 10 seconds and we have a quite poor control on them. Microing more little groups cause the units will cost more, but with better HP levels, will improve the combat gameplay and the formations' handling. with all units.

In addition to that, higher prices will also advantage the progressivity of the map occupation and reinforcement phases. We would have less local blob fights, ending in 10 seconds and leaving a vast empty map for a minute or two. Also less turtling and mass groups idling on the map in the last third of the games, in SP or MP. Instead of that, little skirmishes will pop out at several places on the map and will last longer. The reinforcement phases will be more progressive. This progressivity will also impact the counters, the snowball effects and the frontline movements.

Finally, higher prices but better HP levels will benefit to the engine and the response time of the units. All of them. The population stays infinite, no problem on that, but the number of units on the field will grow in a more progressive way. The combat will gain some form of persistence and will grow more progressively all other the map, while preserving a better sense of tactical combat. Both at early game and later. The player will also have more critical unit production choices to make, cause the combat will still last while the reinforcements, less numerous, will be produced and driven to the field...

As we said, we could finally find a battlefield pace fitting with the economic pace of the game. That's a strong feeling about AoA, since the first beta. I sincerely hope that those suggestions are evaluated somehow, and that some patches could enhance the game a bit more. It's certainly doable.


I feel you are trying to turn this game more into a Wargame or a DoW2 and less into a C&C, most people who bought the game expected something like C&C, go to the Wargame subforums or chat and ask anyone if they would like to play Act of Aggression, even if it was just a reskin of Wargame with new models, the answer will be no, I don't see why appeal to a fanbase which is already content with another game, people bought this game because they expected something like C&C Generals or Tiberium Wars, Eugen didn't manage to deliver and the game failed.
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Re: Eugen u want to earn (more) money with that game? Read this.

Postby Megiddo » Thu 24 Nov 2016 18:16

Yes. But better try something finally logical and quite easy to achieve, given the natural Eugen's community and the games they're good at, than keeping a dead game for all.

And honestly, i think that you haven't understood well the consequences of those changes, or maybe my English was too bad to explain it correctly. You'd still have the C&C sensations, no problem on that, but those sensations would be more progressive, that's all. The combats will simply last longer, for those who want to play a bit more the tactical way and micro correctly their troops or their build orders, their map occupation and reinforcement choices.

Your brute force economy is still here, it's just more progressive. But at the end, brute force alone would not be the only pillar of the gameplay.

To picture the things and come back to your example, just put the DoW 2 units and their characteristics in a C&C frame...Couldn't it work?

It could certainly, but it would just be an even more glorious arcade-ish uncontrollable mess and you'd crash your engine if you don't raise the unit prices as well. that's the point.
That's the saddest part of the story. I was getting used to think, after nearly three decades of its existence, that the word "Strategy" was the main cornerstone of the RTS genre and golden age.

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Re: Eugen u want to earn (more) money with that game? Read this.

Postby Kvantovy » Mon 28 Nov 2016 13:34

McNash wrote:
Kvantovy wrote:Modding possibilities like C&C: Generals ZH had, would be a godsent imho. RTS fans would voluntarily fix all AoA problems and enrich it with new units, factions, maps and maybe even new interesting campaigns.


A mod toolkit already exists, it's just that next to nobody modded the game, and even less people bothered posting the tutorials about how to do things because everyone hates software documentation.


You mean the tools for Wargame or is there something purely for AoA? I remember there was once a topic here in AoA forums about modding units/adding new ones and I recall people said it was impossible. The only thing they achieved was swapping unit models with units not used by factions like the Russian tank and helicopter from Chimera campaign. Are there mods for Wargame that add units created enirely by modders from scratch?

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Re: Eugen u want to earn (more) money with that game? Read this.

Postby McNash » Tue 29 Nov 2016 06:54

Kvantovy wrote:
McNash wrote:
Kvantovy wrote:Modding possibilities like C&C: Generals ZH had, would be a godsent imho. RTS fans would voluntarily fix all AoA problems and enrich it with new units, factions, maps and maybe even new interesting campaigns.


A mod toolkit already exists, it's just that next to nobody modded the game, and even less people bothered posting the tutorials about how to do things because everyone hates software documentation.


You mean the tools for Wargame or is there something purely for AoA? I remember there was once a topic here in AoA forums about modding units/adding new ones and I recall people said it was impossible. The only thing they achieved was swapping unit models with units not used by factions like the Russian tank and helicopter from Chimera campaign. Are there mods for Wargame that add units created enirely by modders from scratch?


I am talking about the Wargame tools, while not the most responsive stuff, at least you could tinker with some of the game options.
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