What's broken...Planes or AAA

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StalkerDellaNote
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Re: What's broken...Planes or AAA

Postby StalkerDellaNote » Fri 21 Apr 2017 17:20

HaryPL wrote:Sounds like he's doing pretty good, by theory at least. Problem IMO is that scotts are currently a bit top good deck, especially air tab wise, and by design they overperform opponents even if they dont do anything wrong

One I can think of to add is that your AA needs to be hidden in some bushes and supported by comman unit; otherwise it can be targeted as first priority and crippled by morale damage before it can achieve anything.
Try to keep AAA invisible to enemy and move it each time after they shoot

Never thought to keep a command unit nearby, that's a mighty decent idea and I'll try to do that, my only problem is, it's damn near impossible to hide vehicles, so will command infantry do fine?

I decided to just nut up and start to play 2nd infantry while bringing vetted P-47's, so far it's worked out well, but that just brings me to the conclusion that AAA's broken and plane's need a slight nerf

and to the replay comments that's my bad, lemme see if I can hunt one down for y'all and you can see
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HaryPL
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Re: What's broken...Planes or AAA

Postby HaryPL » Fri 21 Apr 2017 17:34

Supposedly the Command bonus can make AAA do marvels. Supposedly. And AFAIK it was concerning Allies AAA, not Axis with their anemic 37 and utter crappy 20mm.

Any CV vehicle or infantry will do; infantry is important for supporting your line troops so it's good idea to always bring some cheap CV APC [you can get them from 20 to 40 points] you can find in Support tab.
Also hiding vehicles? Just keep your command behind a hedge or something; same with AAA in fact (though place it wisely so hedges themselves do not cut their cone of fire!) because if you are using your AAA as fire-support or deploying in enemy line of sight, even probable one, you are doing it wrong: AAA can be either fire support or wanna-be air-shield, but not both.

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Re: What's broken...Planes or AAA

Postby StalkerDellaNote » Mon 24 Apr 2017 06:38

Took the advice about the command being taken with allied AAA in a few games.. I actually got air kills with some bofors.. next step is testing it with 8,8 and the otherwise mediocre German AAA
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Re: What's broken...Planes or AAA

Postby King » Mon 24 Apr 2017 07:22

As someone who has worked hard to ensure air supremacy in every recent game I played.

I'd say both.

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Re: What's broken...Planes or AAA

Postby LTSarcasm » Mon 24 Apr 2017 08:10

Temujin wrote:AA, like in real life, was more often used as ground support than actual AA. And because it is extremely efficient on the ground, I think it's balanced.


AA was more used for ground support than for actual AA because the skies were rarely contested. Look up the defense of Ludendorff bridge for a great example of the field AA having to actually protect assets under contested airspace, they were pretty effective.

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Re: What's broken...Planes or AAA

Postby PzAz04Maus » Thu 27 Apr 2017 04:04

After getting out of 10v10s to get a handle on gameplay, I tried a 2v2 as the German Armored Division and Luftlande vs two 2ID.

I faced off his town assault. As predicted, the infantry unit did fairly well against Panzergrenadiers (not many complaints there). Then they proceeded to buy nothing but planes and blapped every target of opportunity for the second half of the game onwards.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/813307204483658827/034F72C50D0D3F964710A2A268DE65779E990D18/

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/813307204483660759/C3E63C067F9C7D99EA4B7C07BF4797C509B694A7/

http://files.sd-replays.net/replayfiles/2519090426319241271-c2d7d5e0-2289-45c4-b91b-9ea8adc82007.zip

The 88 was instastunned and bought it after more than 8 planes came onto the field 3 times.

German AA, even in volume, is worthless against mass. I put down a full complement of the damn things. I set them up with commanders. I ran out of infantry, trucks, AA pieces, because of thunderbolts. They still can SEAD with incredible ease. I couldn't hope to mass enough fighters to trade so I ran out of those trying to salvage what I could. The 20mms barely made a dent, and even with the health buff simply needed a few more sorties to kill.

If 88s came in B phase and packs of 2, I might've stood a small chance.

The only reason I did so well was he never attacked my tanks for some reason. Once I lost all my AA (and had constant trouble reloading them), I couldn't do anything to the bulk of his forces because I couldn't damage the 2000 points worth of planes he had bought.

I don't presume to say I'm a good player at Steel Division. My interceptors were always too late to do anything and were in too few numbers. But this is worse than anything I've ever experienced before. His entire method to attack consisted of aircraft. He could have won against me if he had picked off the panthers, easy!

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Re: What's broken...Planes or AAA

Postby Markenzwieback » Thu 27 Apr 2017 08:21

PzAz04Maus wrote:snip

To a certain extend, the 2ID is pretty broken/unbalanced in regards to air power. As of phase two you can easily establish air superiority with the three per card and vet P-47 ASFs (you can even take two cards giving you a grand total of 6 planes). Add to that P-38s with rockets and/or bombs for very good fire power. Once phase C hits, you get lots of rocket P-47s; depending on how many P-38s you pick, up to 6 total. With medium resilience, the late game party is almost impossible to defeat as any German player.
Off-map artillery, flamethrower infantry and artillery proliferation are the cancer of Steel Division.
Spoiler : :
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Re: What's broken...Planes or AAA

Postby PzAz04Maus » Thu 27 Apr 2017 08:24

It's thoroughly broken, but German AA being crap is just icing on the cake. I don't think any flak has a suppression AOE .

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Re: What's broken...Planes or AAA

Postby Mike » Thu 27 Apr 2017 19:06

PzAz04Maus wrote:It's thoroughly broken, but German AA being crap is just icing on the cake. I don't think any flak has a suppression AOE .


There is no point in buying the 20mm AA guns. You can just use that card on some AC half tracks that can shoot at planes while killing HTs and infantry. Plus it's infinitely more mobile.
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Re: What's broken...Planes or AAA

Postby HaryPL » Fri 28 Apr 2017 00:11

General idea is OK and seems close-enough to be working, but Axis AAA is in dire need of buff.

It's possible to build a working shield with Allies AAA, I have just did that with US Armored division - 4 Halftracks with 37mm, coupled with some 0.50cals from halftrack transports and tank themselves, provided ~90% protection from Axis attackers, especially Mighty Duck and Ju87. They even work as intended as through whole game they shoot down only 2 planes ( sheer luck I think + those AAA Halftracks comes at 1vet/star to start with), nevertheless the Henshel and Ju87 couldn't touch my Jumbo's even when I tried pushing with them. They weren't as much successful in stoping BF109 with rockets and some FW190 but they were limiting them to attack the very frontline units as if they tried to target second line they were stunned before being able to drop payload.

British AA is even better for the task if less mobile for now, Crusaders comes late and Bosfor are towed - but they seem to stun faster and on even larger distance. They aren't that murderous vs aircraft as well. TriPolsten though still kills planes like no tomorrow when placed in range of Command unit - I hardly recall any enemy airstrike, even if performed with couple of planes, that didn't loose at least one aircraft each time they went to drop bombs. BF109 are particularly vulnerable. Again, Polsten requires further nerf.

Axis AA? 37mm is somewhere there but still feels like 2nd league compared to allied 30-40mm AAA, would be nice to have it brought somewhat truly equal to them. Flak88 are unique Axis issue, they are long-ranged and if you team up with someone and manage to keep 4 of them alive in one zone then you, for the first time since beginning of the round, can hope for some -truly solid- form of AAA shield. Quad-Flak position can force-evac enemy rookie planes in one salvo, sometimes they can do the same even with more veteran one. Problem is that the number of planes available in C can overwhelm even quad-flak88 as well as there is ton of artillery and foremost: you need to survive, and in a good shape too so you can afford them, till phase C..
20mm? For all intents and purposes they are non-existent in topic of "AAA as shield". They are functionally unable to stun anything before it drops it's payload and thus evac winchester anyway. They are absolutely incapable of shooting something down. The only effects they have when firing on enemy ASF fighters, either as support for own ASF or deterrent against them chasing your evacuating attackers, is bloody firework show. It's hilariously stupid when you put few of those vs veteran Spitfire ASF as they are both shooting at each other and do somewhat exactly nothing. Sad to watch.

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