New anti-armor system ?

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[EUG]MadMat
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Re: New anti-armor system ?

Postby [EUG]MadMat » Mon 13 Mar 2017 18:14

D-M wrote:I hope we 'll see those...
Spoiler : :
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hansbroger wrote:Or these.... sIG 33
Spoiler : :
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Or both? ;)

hansbroger wrote:With the madness that is the 15cm Stielgranate 42 demolition supercaliber round...
Image

OK, you got me there ... WTF is this thing?
Never heard or read about that ... and yet I know about Hungarian heavy AT missiles' prototypes. ;)

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Re: New anti-armor system ?

Postby Mitchverr » Mon 13 Mar 2017 18:35

Speaking of anti armour, will HESH weapons be given a proper tank destruction force this time around?
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Re: New anti-armor system ?

Postby hansbroger » Mon 13 Mar 2017 18:37

[EUG]MadMat wrote:
hansbroger wrote:With the madness that is the 15cm Stielgranate 42 demolition supercaliber round...
Image

OK, you got me there ... WTF is this thing?
Never heard or read about that ... and yet I know about Hungarian heavy AT missiles' prototypes. ;)


It's a super heavy, bunker busting super-caliber demolition round developed for the sIG 33 infantry gun (or more practically the SPGs such as Grille that used it). Or in other words it works just like the Stielgranate 41 developed for the PaK 36/37 except it is a high explosive demolition round the size of an aerial bomb... used to destroy bunkers and fortified buildings.

The book linked below has a photo of a Grille with the 15cm Stielgranate 42 equipped (the only practical situation wherin I could see the munition being of any use against a MG bunker or strong point). I don't think this could be practically implemented in game except as a dedicated support unit but it is another example of the weird stuff that came to be used in the war.

P. 78
https://books.google.com/books?id=GHSeB ... 42&f=false

Here is an article on the munition, apparently the entire munition weighed 100kg with either a 49.5kg incendiary charge or 55kg high explosive charge. It appears for all intents and purposes to be a modification of a 100kg aerial bomb (HE or Incendiary) to function as a pitot mortar.
http://sturmovik.histoquiz-contemporain ... ate-42.php

Translated from the original French:
In early 1942, Rheinmettal Borsig proposed a new ammunition to improve the performance of SIG 33 - which it already produces - against the reinforced objectives. With its high- The projectile is gyrostabilized and theoretically capable of reaching a target at a distance of 1000 m. However, it is too imprecise for an objective at this distance to be ever reached. Furthermore, it does not have a propelling charge, and its firing is permitted by the firing of a powder gun in the breech of the gun. This is by no means a trial for Rheinmetal, which has already produced similar ammunition for 3.7 cm pieces Pak 36 and Bofors, as well as for the 2.5 cm French anti-tank gun . The difference with the previous projectiles lies in the offensive charge, which is incendiary or shattering, and no longer a hollow charge. The detonation is triggered by a rocket type Wgr.Z 36.
Evaluated at the Wa Prüf 1 (Ammunition Assessment Office) in March 1942, three hundred Stielgranates were fired from 17 April of the same year, with all satisfaction. Mass production was launched in May with the help of a bicycle production company, the Solinger Fahrradfabrik.

Once the evaluation tests passed successfully, the ammunition - now named 15 cm Stielgranate 42 - enters its true phase of production from September. The amount of ammunition produced, Of all types combined, then rapidly increases from 760 projectiles in October to 2,500 in November.
Approximately 50,000 will be produced until October 1944, with a maximum of 8400 in December 1943. These ammunition are reported to have performed reasonably well in the field, and incendiary ammunition is particularly valued in urban combat . However, several reports indicate difficulties in handling and loading them on their parts. Indeed, it is necessary to immobilize two men during a few minutes, the whole before the shield of the canon, that is to say uncovered.
Dimensions and weight:
- Caliber: 30 cm, fixed on a tube of 15 cm.
- Volume: 320 cm3 for the incendiary projectile, and 350 for the shattering projectile.
- Weight of the projectile: 100 kg for both types.
- Weight of the military charge: 49.5 kg for the incendiary projectile, 55 kg for the shooting projectile.
Photo gallery : With a maximum of 8400 in December 1943. These ammunition have been reported to have performed reasonably well in the field, and incendiary ammunition is particularly valued in urban combat. However, several reports indicate difficulties in handling and loading them on their parts. Indeed, it is necessary to immobilize two men during a few minutes, the whole before the shield of the canon, that is to say uncovered. Photo gallery : With a maximum of 8400 in December 1943. These ammunition have been reported to have performed reasonably well in the field, and incendiary ammunition is particularly valued in urban combat. However, several reports indicate difficulties in handling and loading them on their parts. Indeed, it is necessary to immobilize two men during a few minutes, the whole before the shield of the canon, that is to say uncovered. Photo gallery : Several reports indicate difficulties in handling and loading them on their parts. Indeed, it is necessary to immobilize two men during a few minutes, the whole before the shield of the canon, that is to say uncovered. Photo gallery : Several reports indicate difficulties in handling and loading them on their parts. Indeed, it is necessary to immobilize two men during a few minutes, the whole before the shield of the canon, that is to say uncovered. Photo gallery :
Last edited by hansbroger on Mon 13 Mar 2017 18:48, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: New anti-armor system ?

Postby HrcAk47 » Mon 13 Mar 2017 18:41

[EUG]MadMat wrote:
D-M wrote:I hope we 'll see those...
Spoiler : :
Image

hansbroger wrote:Or these.... sIG 33
Spoiler : :
Image


Or both? ;)

hansbroger wrote:With the madness that is the 15cm Stielgranate 42 demolition supercaliber round...
Image

OK, you got me there ... WTF is this thing?
Never heard or read about that ... and yet I know about Hungarian heavy AT missiles' prototypes. ;)


Germany had an idea of re-using the old and useless 37 mm PaKs by designing a "rifle grenade-like" overcharge (HEAT or HE), that is loaded from the outside, then propelled by a blank shot. Suddenly, the shitty doorknockers of which you have plenty are again competitive.

Look up Stielgranate 41 for more details.

The Stielgranate 42 is an improvement of the concept, upsized to use a 150 mm barrel with more powerful blank, used to destroy structures by direct fire. It was only done in HE and incendiary flavor.
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

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Re: New anti-armor system ?

Postby hansbroger » Mon 13 Mar 2017 18:58

Actually a Grille with 15 cm Stielgranate 42 would make a great "funny". I'm not usually for crazy Wunderwaffe German tech like the Sturmtiger but I'm cool with the outright insane WTF bargain barn McGyver stuff like the Stielgranates. Unlike the Wunderwaffes the range would be terrible (I doubt it would be accurate past 400m if even that..) and the reload would be horrific (like worse than the somewhat similar 95mm pitot mortar armed Churchills). The Grille itself (or the pushed sIG 33) would be horrifically vulnerable as well as being annoyingly slow but it would probably still find use in town fighting.
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Re: New anti-armor system ?

Postby FrangibleCover » Mon 13 Mar 2017 19:12

hansbroger wrote:Actually a Grille with 15 cm Stielgranate 42 would make a great "funny". I'm not usually for crazy Wunderwaffe German tech like the Sturmtiger but I'm cool with the outright insane WTF bargain barn McGyver stuff like the Stielgranates. Unlike the Wunderwaffes the range would be terrible (I doubt it would be accurate past 400m if even that..) and the reload would be horrific (like worse than the somewhat similar 95mm pitot mortar armed Churchills). The Grille itself (or the pushed sIG 33) would be horrifically vulnerable as well as being annoyingly slow but it would probably still find use in town fighting.

I'm all for it, it's not really stepping on the toes of the Churchill AVRE too badly since it's only mounted to an open topped casemate SPG at best. They made 50000 from 1942 so it's not a low production rate wunderwaffe. That's a really nice find, although at this stage Eugen might well have locked the unit lists in.

Incidentally the 95mm Close Support Howitzer is a standard gun, used on a variety of different British tanks mainly for direct fire smoke deployment. The Churchill AVREs had 290mm Spigot Mortars for demolishing, well, anyone who stopped within 230 yards and gave them a couple of tries. 80 yards effective range, apparently, and 26lbs of HE. Not great until you remember it's on a heavy tank and that's still highly marginal range for Panzerfaust.
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Re: New anti-armor system ?

Postby Mitchverr » Mon 13 Mar 2017 19:19

FrangibleCover wrote:Incidentally the 95mm Close Support Howitzer is a standard gun, used on a variety of different British tanks mainly for direct fire smoke deployment. The Churchill AVREs had 290mm Spigot Mortars for demolishing, well, anyone who stopped within 230 yards and gave them a couple of tries. 80 yards effective range, apparently, and 26lbs of HE. Not great until you remember it's on a heavy tank and that's still highly marginal range for Panzerfaust.


Smoke and HE rounds for the 95mm, shame they didnt make HESH for it :lol: (though they made heat apparently?)
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Re: New anti-armor system ?

Postby hansbroger » Mon 13 Mar 2017 19:22

FrangibleCover wrote:
hansbroger wrote:Actually a Grille with 15 cm Stielgranate 42 would make a great "funny". I'm not usually for crazy Wunderwaffe German tech like the Sturmtiger but I'm cool with the outright insane WTF bargain barn McGyver stuff like the Stielgranates. Unlike the Wunderwaffes the range would be terrible (I doubt it would be accurate past 400m if even that..) and the reload would be horrific (like worse than the somewhat similar 95mm pitot mortar armed Churchills). The Grille itself (or the pushed sIG 33) would be horrifically vulnerable as well as being annoyingly slow but it would probably still find use in town fighting.

I'm all for it, it's not really stepping on the toes of the Churchill AVRE too badly since it's only mounted to an open topped casemate SPG at best. They made 50000 from 1942 so it's not a low production rate wunderwaffe. That's a really nice find, although at this stage Eugen might well have locked the unit lists in.

Incidentally the 95mm Close Support Howitzer is a standard gun, used on a variety of different British tanks mainly for direct fire smoke deployment. The Churchill AVREs had 290mm Spigot Mortars for demolishing, well, anyone who stopped within 230 yards and gave them a couple of tries. 80 yards effective range, apparently, and 26lbs of HE. Not great until you remember it's on a heavy tank and that's still highly marginal range for Panzerfaust.


Yeah the Grille/hand pushed sIG 33 makes me wonder if it is actually worth it (apologies for getting the 95mm mixed up with the 290mm spigot... I was apparently calling the pitot as well...). I'm 90% sure that a Boys would make Swiss cheese out of the Grille/Bison/pushed sIG and its crew before it even got within useful range (My estimate for the effective range of the system is something along the lines of the 290mm Spigots as well at around 200m-300m, I doubt you could hit anything smaller than an apartment block at 300m+). That being said if used as part of a combined arms urban assault it would be useful and that is probably the reason why it could be included successfuly, too squishy and flawed to be used on its own but very useful in support.

AVRE has it figured out because it can actually get into an effective range to use the damn thing, that being said it still has the same reload issue.

Just makes me think of this (0:09 onwards to be exact):
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Re: New anti-armor system ?

Postby Mitchverr » Mon 13 Mar 2017 19:38

hansbroger wrote:Yeah the Grille/hand pushed sIG 33 makes me wonder if it is actually worth it (apologies for getting the 95mm mixed up with the 290mm spigot... I was apparently calling the pitot as well...). I'm 90% sure that a Boys would make Swiss cheese out of the Grille/Bison/pushed sIG and its crew before it even got within useful range (My estimate for the effective range of the system is something along the lines of the 290mm Spigots as well at around 200m-300m, I doubt you could hit anything smaller than an apartment block at 300m+). That being said if used as part of a combined arms urban assault it would be useful and that is probably the reason why it could be included successfuly, too squishy and flawed to be used on its own but very useful in support.

AVRE has it figured out because it can actually get into an effective range to use the damn thing, that being said it still has the same reload issue.

Just makes me think of this (0:09 onwards to be exact):


IIRC the issue with range isnt so much accuracy as it is to do with angle of attack and the general force of the shells launch wasnt it? IE beyond that distance and its effect wasnt as good?
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Re: New anti-armor system ?

Postby hansbroger » Mon 13 Mar 2017 19:47

You know after looking at the dimensions and charge sizes, I have a hunch that the 15cm Stielgranate-42 is using the warhead of a 28 cm Wurfkörper Spreng/32 cm Wurfkörper Flamm (28/32 cm Nebelwerfer 41 munitions) converted for use as a spigot mortar. The roughly 100kg munition weight combined with a 49.5kg incendiary/55 kg high explosive charge meshes well with the 32 cm Wurfkörper Flamm's 45kg incindiary oil warhead and the 28 cm Wurfkörper Spreng's 50kg high explosive warhead, which would actually make more sense given the complexity of making aerial bombs.
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