Let vehicles recover from "Bailed out" critical

User avatar
Seekerdolls
Sergeant First-Class
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed 28 Aug 2013 11:56
Contact:

Re: Let vehicles recover from "Bailed out" critical

Postby Seekerdolls » Mon 1 May 2017 03:45

hansbroger wrote:When my crews bail out I assume there was good cause to do so (it's annoying as hell but so are a lot of other realistic things that are "non-lethal" kills). Something has happened that has made the vehicle unfightable and the crew is either gone or lying low for the cover of darkness to either attempt a basic mobility restore/recover or escape. I think the "abandons in terror" isn't so much a realistic or frequent occurrence.

Most sides generally made strenuous efforts to recover abandoned and even partially burned out tanks, with most combatants also having pretty strenuous rules about crews staying to defend the vehicle if at all possible.



When shells are hitting metal bawxes, tank crews only know two things.

1. Enemies are concentrating to us.
2. If only one shell penetrates armour, we are boned.

You said "there was good cause to do"
Survival instinct seems good enough cause to me.
Sorry for inconvenience :D

User avatar
eMeM
Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 2045
Joined: Sat 24 Nov 2012 00:26
Contact:

Re: Let vehicles recover from "Bailed out" critical

Postby eMeM » Mon 1 May 2017 10:14

Maybe "bailed out" is a penetration that doesn't kill the (whole) crew and doesn't cause any fires?
Image

User avatar
Saavedra
Warrant Officer
Posts: 497
Joined: Thu 10 Apr 2014 21:53
Contact:

Re: Let vehicles recover from "Bailed out" critical

Postby Saavedra » Mon 1 May 2017 18:08

I am not an expert in WWII by any means, but... I would argue that if a crew bails out of a tank, they have already done the "how safe am I in here" calculation, and the result is pretty clear: they are not.

Imagine you are in a tank. Crew compartments are small, cramped, dark spaces. You know you are surrounded by a hell of a lot of steel, but you also know it can be pierced and, if it is, there is a chance the penetration will hit your fuel tanks or ammo. You are not going to bail because you hear a loud impact on your armour, because that´s probably a shell that was stopped... but if there is a penetration, chances are you will know. The shell will go into the crew compartment and cause smoke, sparks, and all manner of injuries ranging from concussions to dismemberment. You will be confused, you will be partially blinded by the smoke, your fellow crewmen will scream (so will you), and if you are still calm enough to think, one of the first thoughts that will probably come to your mind will be "if we have been penetrated once, we can be penetrated again". Bailing out would be the best choice you can take in a panicky situation, and you probably are in panic. You COULD be wrong about that, but you are in a tank: you don´t have a lot of situational awareness to help you figure out anything about your enemy. And most AT guns and tanks that you think may have just penetrated you probably don´t take too long to reload, so you can´t just sit there and hope that was just a lucky fluke or that the situation changed dramatically in the last few seconds, and your enemy is suddenly unable to fire again.

Some users have pointed out that you can be shot while trying to bail. While perhaps quite likely, I imagine most tank crews would prefer that to burning to death inside their tank, and humans have a funny way of thinking: we sometimes prefer the likelier but less painful death to the less likely but excruciating one. If you have a 60% chance of dying from getting shot, but you have a 40% chance of slowly burning up, which one do you choose?

Of course you will bail out.

That is the personal context. Now consider the historical one.

Bear in mind that 1944 comes after 1942, the Allies had been fighting in Africa already, and using Shermans to boot (the most numerous tank the Allies had, as far as I know). What they found was that Shermans would burn easily when the ammo was hit. I don´t remember when the wet ammo storage was implemented, but the possibility of a tank blowing out from inside is unlikely to escape anyone´s memory. A number of us still assume wrongly that the Sherman was a death trap (it was, in fact, possibly one of the safest tanks to operate with... because bailing out of it was easier than bailing out of the Tiger, the T-34 or the Cromwell).

And the Allies know the Germans have tanks perfectly capable of causing the total destruction of a Sherman. The Tiger was first encountered by the Western Allies in Africa and had such a fearsome reputation that Allied tank crews in Normandy would regularly mistake Panzer IVs for Tigers and react as expected. They also met the anti-tank version of the 88mm. And I´m pretty sure they already knew about the Panther. So yeah, if the Allied tank crews were already that scared before going into combat, I don´t think they were all that much against bailing out during battle.

Not that their German counterparts were much better off. If I remember correctly, while the impact of air attacks against ground troops in Normandy was vastly overstated, it was still absolutely terrifying. German crews would bail out of their tanks during the attack, at least. I assume they reembarked afterwards.




So no. I really, really, really don´t think most crews would remount their vehicle in the midst of combat in Normandy, 1944. This critical does not really add a lot in terms of gameplay when it comes to being different to crew killed or fuel/ammo explosion, but I still consider it a nice touch in terms of realism. I also wonder if this critical is easier to achieve when the enemy is low on morale... and if it is not, I would be all for it.

Cullen's Hound
Sergeant Major of the Army
Posts: 361
Joined: Mon 31 Mar 2014 00:35
Contact:

Re: Let vehicles recover from "Bailed out" critical

Postby Cullen's Hound » Mon 1 May 2017 19:29

Pretty sure I've had tanks recover fron this one.

Nope, my mistake, it just sat there until someone got a side shot. Very weird, this is the first game Ive ever played that had a bail mechanic that wouldn't let them remount. It should be the same as pinning. I wonder if it is a bug?
Last edited by Cullen's Hound on Fri 5 May 2017 04:39, edited 1 time in total.

Terracos
Sergeant First-Class
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu 26 May 2016 09:50
Contact:

Re: Let vehicles recover from "Bailed out" critical

Postby Terracos » Tue 2 May 2017 11:32

To be honest if it happens against me, i take the Bailed out crit over all the "blow up" penetrations. In general, from my experience, you get 1 bailed out for 10 penetrations. So it is more likely to get destroyed then bailed out.

Now for the gameplay, and why I enjoy this crit a bit more:

In general I try to attack always with more than one tank at the same time, as an offense move with one tank is so easely deflected (early phase A not counted) and if one of your tank crews bailes out, the tank is still a valid target for the enemy. If not microed properly you kind of have a free meat shield compared to just a destroyed tank.

User avatar
Tagaziel
Specialist
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue 2 May 2017 14:05
Location: Site 42
Contact:

Re: Let vehicles recover from "Bailed out" critical

Postby Tagaziel » Tue 2 May 2017 23:21

Saavedra wrote:And the Allies know the Germans have tanks perfectly capable of causing the total destruction of a Sherman.


I'll just add that there's also the German tank fighting doctrine to consider, which basically focused on shooting the tank until it caught on fire or changed shape. So a mobility or firepower kills weren't enough at any rate.

The game could communicate it better, though. "Bailed out" doesn't say just what happened to the tank. Maybe the fuel pump went down and the crew wandered off to buy a used LSSAH Tiger?

User avatar
FrangibleCover
Lieutenant
Posts: 1332
Joined: Mon 14 Nov 2016 21:34
Contact:

Re: Let vehicles recover from "Bailed out" critical

Postby FrangibleCover » Wed 3 May 2017 00:30

Tagaziel wrote:I'll just add that there's also the German tank fighting doctrine to consider, which basically focused on shooting the tank until it caught on fire or changed shape. So a mobility or firepower kills weren't enough at any rate.

That's pretty much British doctrine too. I can't imagine that the US was particularly stingy about their ammunition expenditure either.
[Non-included Nation] Belgium - Spreadsheet
[Non-included Nation] Hungary - Spreadsheet
[Non-included Nation] Pakistan

TheOnlySpy
Private
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri 22 Mar 2013 23:48
Contact:

Re: Let vehicles recover from "Bailed out" critical

Postby TheOnlySpy » Wed 3 May 2017 11:20

Saavedra wrote:So no. I really, really, really don´t think most crews would remount their vehicle in the midst of combat in Normandy, 1944. This critical does not really add a lot in terms of gameplay when it comes to being different to crew killed or fuel/ammo explosion, but I still consider it a nice touch in terms of realism. I also wonder if this critical is easier to achieve when the enemy is low on morale... and if it is not, I would be all for it.


The problem with your dramatic description of being fired upon in a tank in this conversation is that the prevailing idea here was allowing a tank to recover from a "bailed out" after an extended period of time not being shot at, not in the midst of combat. I think it would be a fantastic addition to the game, because it would lead to many emergent gameplay scenarios on both sides.

User avatar
Mister Maf
Lieutenant
Posts: 1408
Joined: Sun 15 Dec 2013 23:15
Contact:

Re: Let vehicles recover from "Bailed out" critical

Postby Mister Maf » Wed 3 May 2017 12:02

TheOnlySpy wrote:
Saavedra wrote:So no. I really, really, really don´t think most crews would remount their vehicle in the midst of combat in Normandy, 1944. This critical does not really add a lot in terms of gameplay when it comes to being different to crew killed or fuel/ammo explosion, but I still consider it a nice touch in terms of realism. I also wonder if this critical is easier to achieve when the enemy is low on morale... and if it is not, I would be all for it.


The problem with your dramatic description of being fired upon in a tank in this conversation is that the prevailing idea here was allowing a tank to recover from a "bailed out" after an extended period of time not being shot at, not in the midst of combat. I think it would be a fantastic addition to the game, because it would lead to many emergent gameplay scenarios on both sides.

Basically this. The idea in my head resembles something like the abandoned vehicle mechanic in Company of Heroes — when a crew bails, suddenly that vehicle becomes an urgent short-term objective for every player. What do you do? You could just destroy it, but if you're running thin on manpower, that vehicle could be the linchpin that makes or breaks the match and you have to break out all the chutzpah you can muster to get it into action again (as your opponent tries to stop you).

Right now, the "bailed out" critical amounts to "welp, I guess it's dead" for you, and "welp, there's a target my units will waste time aiming and shooting at instead of the real threat just behind it" for your opponent. It's not interesting. If there is an opportunity for the vehicle to be recrewed, and both sides know it, suddenly it becomes a battle to secure the immediate area ASAP before the vehicle is either destroyed or returns to action.

You only get the vehicle back if you manage to push the enemy without its help. It's usually easier for the opponent to just finish it off, or at least in this case keep it suppressed so the crew doesn't re-mount. But if you do secure the area, it's only logical that they would get back in once the coast is clear, assuming the reason they bailed in the first place was fear and not vehicle damage.
Image

Grosnours
Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 2091
Joined: Mon 17 Sep 2012 23:00
Contact:

Re: Let vehicles recover from "Bailed out" critical

Postby Grosnours » Wed 3 May 2017 13:28

I think I saw a bailed out command tank still exert its command range and give stars to units around. Anyone to confirm or was I daydreaming ?
I don't really get bailed out. Either the tank should self-destruct (let's it's scuttled bu its crew) or be able to be manned again. But the zombie status is a bit odd.
Image

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: realfakealex, Suvorovka and 6 guests