Asymetric balance of Jerries VS allies in Normandy 44

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DeuZerre
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Asymetric balance of Jerries VS allies in Normandy 44

Postby DeuZerre » Mon 8 May 2017 10:56

Yesterday, had a discussion with a buddy and one of the observations was that the Germans weren't that great, mostly due to some soft issues.

The germans get a small air tab, which is already quite generous considering the state of the german air force during the normandy campaign. But they also get rather trash AA overall.

Regarding the air war, my favourite solution is anyway to have the SPAA deal greater morale damage to planes than they do now, but unless this happens, I'd like to see all towed AA in the german side get increased availability per card. The rationale is that, being the defenders in the german campaign, they had lots of fixed AA laying around, much more than the Tommies or "die Amerikanz". This would make it asymetric balance. Because at the moment, with the allied air supremacy, the allied team can often easily overwhelm the anti-air defence network and wipe it out one position at a time, an attrition that the germans can't really sustain (unless they only get fighters in their air tab, and at that point the allies can still have more fighters (and more experienced ones) and the german airforce would be purely defensive.
TLDR: Increase availability per card of towed AA

In the same logic, it would be nice to increase the number per card of towed AT and support guns the germans get: They're on the defensive, and as such have a lot more "ambush" tools, especially the infantry divisions. Given the amount of armour some allies get in phase A, this would be pretty welcome I feel.

Well, these were just some opinions to enhance the asymetric balance of the game. Not hard numbers, just feels.
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Re: Asymetric balance of Jerries VS allies in Normandy 44

Postby Sleksa » Mon 8 May 2017 11:27

DeuZerre wrote:Yesterday, had a discussion with a buddy and one of the observations was that the Germans weren't that great, mostly due to some soft issues.

The germans get a small air tab, which is already quite generous considering the state of the german air force during the normandy campaign. But they also get rather trash AA overall.

Regarding the air war, my favourite solution is anyway to have the SPAA deal greater morale damage to planes than they do now, but unless this happens, I'd like to see all towed AA in the german side get increased availability per card. The rationale is that, being the defenders in the german campaign, they had lots of fixed AA laying around, much more than the Tommies or "die Amerikanz". This would make it asymetric balance. Because at the moment, with the allied air supremacy, the allied team can often easily overwhelm the anti-air defence network and wipe it out one position at a time, an attrition that the germans can't really sustain (unless they only get fighters in their air tab, and at that point the allies can still have more fighters (and more experienced ones) and the german airforce would be purely defensive.
TLDR: Increase availability per card of towed AA

In the same logic, it would be nice to increase the number per card of towed AT and support guns the germans get: They're on the defensive, and as such have a lot more "ambush" tools, especially the infantry divisions. Given the amount of armour some allies get in phase A, this would be pretty welcome I feel.

Well, these were just some opinions to enhance the asymetric balance of the game. Not hard numbers, just feels.


The problem with all that is that the "asymmetrical balance" scenario you're saying here is still massively favouring one side. Air is perhaps even more crucial and game defining in sd than it ever was in wargame, and simply saying that one side should get shafted on that area of decks is equal to making another side worse.

This goes for the at and support guns as well. I feel like nearly all divisions have enough at guns and increasing their amounts per card won't really do anything there at all. The problem is more about the quality of some at guns, as for example the luftlande a-phase at gun can't really fight anything but halftracks with it's 5ap at range. This 5ap pretty much leaves the whole division wide open to be bullied by any tank play, especially when coupled with a lack of any decent armor themselves.

personally I feel like this kind of asymmetric balance thinking also opens the world for a wide array of other potential murky decision making, like giving all german troops a fachist supremacy indoctrination bonus of +100% supression resistance on account of ~asymmetric balance~, +10kmh speed to american infantry on account of superior food logistics and so on which to me has no place in a game like this, just like it had no place in wargame where it was attempted in certain areas (35% acc t-80u vs 60% cross the board nato heavies) and resulted in redfor being considerably weaker for the most part of wargame series.
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Re: Asymetric balance of Jerries VS allies in Normandy 44

Postby DeuZerre » Mon 8 May 2017 11:50

I'm not saying one side should be shafted, I'm saying the germans have weak air already, so their ground AA should be much better.

Air wasn't that strong in the first beta I played because AA did massive suppression and planes flying over AA were almost insta-routed, even above german AA (that is shit as it stands).

My point about AT and AA guns is that air really kills them easily, and at that point you can't replace them because they all got killed one by one by almost unstoppable rocket/bomber raids.

You're making a sophistic argument about giving random bonuses. I suggested this on "semi-historic basis": They were on their own turf, and had lots of towed stuff already in place.

The trash AT gun you're mentioning has a great rate of fire and as such can easily rout enemy tanks, even with great armour, as long as there's multiples of them firing, especially for the cost. And if the tank is bigger, turn off the main ammo, and let the rocket one-shot churchills that got too close to their hedge.
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Re: Asymetric balance of Jerries VS allies in Normandy 44

Postby Gronank » Mon 8 May 2017 12:36

The problem with 20mm single barrel flak is that you can't make them good AA without making them outstanding machineguns.

As for power of air in general. In my mod, I've increased survivability of guns and infantry a lot (while retaining suppression) and this makes planes less useful as deletion tools and more suppressive in nature
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Re: Asymetric balance of Jerries VS allies in Normandy 44

Postby Grosnours » Mon 8 May 2017 13:34

Sleksa wrote:This goes for the at and support guns as well. I feel like nearly all divisions have enough at guns and increasing their amounts per card won't really do anything there at all. The problem is more about the quality of some at guns, as for example the luftlande a-phase at gun can't really fight anything but halftracks with it's 5ap at range. This 5ap pretty much leaves the whole division wide open to be bullied by any tank play, especially when coupled with a lack of any decent armor themselves.

True, it's about quality, not quantity. And also availability per period.
All in all there are very little issue with quantity being too little, most often there's too much of them (see arty).

Gronank wrote:The problem with 20mm single barrel flak is that you can't make them good AA without making them outstanding machineguns.

Then again, most AAA are already outstanding machine guns. I've seen too many paks shredded by M15 to be happy about the current state of AAA, and I'm not even talking about the legendary tripolsten.

So I'd rather go with limiting severely the AAA ground range (88mm excluded for flavor purposes even though I doubt it's a mundane task and instant task to switch from AAA to anti-tank duty) for everyone, like 600-800m in order for at least tanks to become their natural predators.
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Re: Asymetric balance of Jerries VS allies in Normandy 44

Postby Gronank » Mon 8 May 2017 14:06

Grosnours wrote:Then again, most AAA are already outstanding machine guns. I've seen too many paks shredded by M15 to be happy about the current state of AAA, and I'm not even talking about the legendary tripolsten.

Yeah, but they're a bit pricy making them overkill/too vulnerable in most instances a machinegun would do. I'd use single barrel 20mm if it was 30 points because that is the power of the thing. But at that price point, I'd toss s.MG42 and save myself an infantry slot.
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Re: Asymmetric balance of Jerries VS Allies in Normandy 44

Postby FrangibleCover » Mon 8 May 2017 14:10

Grosnours wrote:88mm excluded for flavor purposes even though I doubt it's a mundane task and instant task to switch from AAA to anti-tank duty

Von Luck's book implies that it's relatively easy and can be done by Luftwaffe crews who are not trained in AT combat but then Von Luck's book also implies that he was a hero who didn't know anything about any war crimes and wasn't that fond of these Nazi types anyway so you decide how trustworthy a source it is. I can't imagine it was too difficult though, depress the gun to 0 degrees and load AP. Thanks to the cruciform base you should be able to fire in any direction so it doesn't matter if you don't point the gun towards the front when you set it up.
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Re: Asymetric balance of Jerries VS allies in Normandy 44

Postby Saavedra » Mon 8 May 2017 14:16

I find that air game is less than exciting. Once people get the ball rolling, there is little you can do to stop plane trains due to the slow points buildup.

Personally, I think planes should be made weaker and cheaper. Or some sort of asymmetrical balance established for the AA game. Germans having more powerful AA while Allies have more powerful planes/fighters, for example.

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Re: Asymetric balance of Jerries VS allies in Normandy 44

Postby Nathan des Lessings » Mon 8 May 2017 16:28

Saavedra wrote:I find that air game is less than exciting. Once people get the ball rolling, there is little you can do to stop plane trains due to the slow points buildup.

Personally, I think planes should be made weaker and cheaper. Or some sort of asymmetrical balance established for the AA game. Germans having more powerful AA while Allies have more powerful planes/fighters, for example.

Yep, that's how it should be.
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Re: Asymetric balance of Jerries VS allies in Normandy 44

Postby Mike » Mon 8 May 2017 17:14

Gronank wrote:The problem with 20mm single barrel flak is that you can't make them good AA without making them outstanding machineguns.

As for power of air in general. In my mod, I've increased survivability of guns and infantry a lot (while retaining suppression) and this makes planes less useful as deletion tools and more suppressive in nature


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