Armour Value and AP Value Question

Sandiford
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Re: Armour Value and AP Value Question

Postby Sandiford » Thu 6 Jul 2017 01:23

MrCrisps wrote:I'm actually trying to understand how the penetration system works, because having a AP 5 firing at max range at an Armor 2 vehicle and having only 16% penetration is just stupid.


You've probably seen the tables, they are just the probablity of certain rolls with a 2D6. 2%, 8%, 16%, 27%, 41%, 58%, 72%, 83%, 91%, 97%, 100%

Penetration starts at 2% for AP = AV and then climbs one step for each increment. AP 5 against AV 2 should be 27% I think, as it's 3 steps above 2%.

For a 50% chance to penetration you need +4/+5. A hypothetical AP 6.5 gun would then be a 50/50 match for an AV 2 target, and an AP2 firing on an AV2 target is vastly underpowered.


The system kind of works if you bear this in mind. It's just counter intuitive.

Closer the distance to a target in real life by 500m will give something in the region on 25% more penetration, so with the game's constant AP scaling, this means that in effect all weapons get proportional gains from scaling, which is correct. Closing 500m with a 2AP weapon gains the same % benefit as closing 500m with a 17AP weapon.


The penetration spread is pretty high I think.

If penetrating the ~80mm front armor on a Panzer IV (calling this 8 AV) with a 50/50 chance takes an 80mm penetrating gun such as the sherman 75mm @500m (which would be AP 12.5),

Then is gives the sherman 75mm @500m about a 12% chance of penetrating a tiger tank with about 110mm front armor (calling this 11 AV), which seems a bit high, really it should have a chance of immobilising or damaging the tank rather than outright destroying it.

It's bizarre to me that the dice rolls for penetration and hit rolls are tied together this way, or we could just make it a 2d4 or similar.



MrCrisps wrote:Ok, I've understood how the HitRollRule.ndf works, especially after having modified it and heavily tested the changes.

What I've seen so far is that if you reduce the threshold value under the maximum, ALL the penetration will be at that threshold value, without modificators. That means that EVEN AN AP 2 WEAPON COULD KILL A JUMBO FROM THE FRONT !


It's bugged. You can use the following in HitRollConstants.ndf instead

ModificateurArmeArmure = # (default 1)

increasing it will increase penetration chance, so setting it to 5 or 6 (1+4 or 1+5) will give about 50/50 penetration for equal AP and AV

The translation of the comment is

Code: Select all

    // Modificateur_Ratio_ArmeArmure
    // This value is used to set from what armor level a barrel begins to have a
    // chance to penetrate. With 0 it takes a level of armor lower or equal.


It's incorrect though. It has be set to 1 to have an chance of penetrating with matching AP and AV

MrCrisps wrote:So, I'm wondering if other files enter in that penetration calculation. Are the ArmesArmures.ndf and DamageResistance.ndf have any effects on the penetration value? What do the values in those files change ingame?


In Wargame there was one set of tables that were damage multipliers. Not penetration related.
There now seem to be 2 sets of tables, I'm not sure why. One may be obsolete or the new one might do something different, though I don't think there's anything else they do. I'm curious.

There are 2 types of damage. The first is hitpoints. HE weapons like bombs and small arms do hitpoint damage. When the hitpoints run out the unit dies, vehicles work the same as infantry here. Changing values in these tables is likely to change hitpoint damage.

Then there are critical hits. When a hit penetrates it can cause a critical, and that critical can kill a unit outright. AP weapons do critical hits so they tend to ignore hitpoints. I'm not sure of AP weapons do hitpoint damage too, but my guess is they're set to do no damage and only cause ciritical.

MrCrisps wrote:I've noticed that those values, in ArmesArmures.ndf refer to the ArmorFamilies detailed in the DamageResistance.ndf. But I don't know what they mean as they are the same values, whatever Armor it is (from Blindage_1 to Blindage_25).


As above, damage multipliers, so not really relevant for AP weapons, as far as I can tell.


Jairard wrote:
What I've seen so far is that if you reduce the threshold value under the maximum, ALL the penetration will be at that threshold value, without modificators. That means that EVEN AN AP 2 WEAPON COULD KILL A JUMBO FROM THE FRONT !


I'm not sure to understand what you're talking about. What do you mean by "maximum" ?


He's right, there's a bug.

If you set threshhold to 11 every AP weapon can penetration (2%?)

Negative penetration modifiers not being counted? or some funky coding?


Jairard wrote:Maybe the EfficaciteSelonPortee of your weapon in Ammunition.ndf will help you understand this situation. If it's True, it means that the AP value of your weapon decreases with distance to target.

These files are not used in hit or penetration computation. However, the field HitRollModifier in DamageLevels.ndf is added to the sum of the modifiers.


These are very good to know, thank you.

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The W:AB Noob
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Re: Armour Value and AP Value Question

Postby The W:AB Noob » Thu 6 Jul 2017 16:14

MrCrisps wrote:Thanks for your quick answer Jairard !

I'm not sure to understand what you're talking about. What do you mean by "maximum" ?


I mean the maximum value on the dice. With vanilla rules, it would be 12 on 2d6.

I thought it was 1d10?
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Sandiford
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Re: Armour Value and AP Value Question

Postby Sandiford » Thu 6 Jul 2017 17:01

The W:AB Noob wrote:
MrCrisps wrote:Thanks for your quick answer Jairard !

I'm not sure to understand what you're talking about. What do you mean by "maximum" ?


I mean the maximum value on the dice. With vanilla rules, it would be 12 on 2d6.

I thought it was 1d10?


Code: Select all

    // 2d6
    DiceCount = 2
    DiceType = 6
    RollSuccessThreshold = 12 // Success if roll + modifiersum > RollSuccessThreshold


:)

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Re: Armour Value and AP Value Question

Postby MrCrisps » Thu 13 Jul 2017 12:47

Thank you very much for the detailed explanation Sandiford, now I can finally make my mod work as I intended originally. Really, thank you very much, I would have never guess that the own explanations in the ndf files could be wrong.

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