Being shafted

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Brutoni
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Being shafted

Postby Brutoni » Wed 27 Mar 2013 19:57

As a heads up I would like to point out I understand the application of strategy and tactics... In quite some depth. I do it for a living in a theatre that is every bit as unforgiving as any land conflict. I'm no stranger to the differences between Infantry/Support/Armour/Recon/air assets (time spent on recon is time seldom wasted as a certain individual once told me!)

Despite this I am being absolutely destroyed online. Up to 40 matches now and only 2 wins. I simply seem unable to either mount a credible offensive that doesn't seem to be rebuffed despite my best efforts. Or in the defense I just end up being bombed to oblivion. I realise I am playing people who are probably more familiar to the game than myself and that a game like this often has a steep learning curve however NEVER have I felt so entirely outmatched. I feel like everything I do is countered.. perfectly. Opponents are using the exact same strategies as myself at times with the only difference that I feel like my units bounce off EVERYTHING.

SO, having got my drip out of the way (you will have to excuse me dripping more than a leaky tap on this occasion) can I have some tips from players?

1) Are there units that are just terrible?

2) What units do not perform in the same way you would expect them to in real life (potential a real danger for myself)

3) Is NATO really that bad? I played 4 games as PACT and won 2... 1 using the starter deck lol. Seems "quantity has a quality all of its own applies heavily in this game!

4) As NATO what should my deck setup look like, what is a good balance of slots between the different options (ie how much infantry, how much tanks, how much in logs etcetc

5) Is it just me or does the standard game mode favour PACT very heavily... Numbers enable you to quickly sieze ground, on the defense inferior stats matter less, your now in a position that is hard to dislodge while gaining more points than NATO... Sit and bombard the enemy to your hearts content... Seems to happen to me a lot.

Any other pointers and tips would be appreciated. I don't mind the complexity. Just don't seem to be able to apply tactics effectively and I'm wondering if I am simply approaching this from the wrong way? I don't mind a learning curve but we all like to win at least occassionally!
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Re: Being shafted

Postby Norim0101 » Wed 27 Mar 2013 20:18

4) in my opinion you should have 5 ifantry units in your deck, 3 slots for tank is enough, logistics: prbably 2 slots for armoured commands, and two for supply

Tips that i can give you:
- always have recon infantry... everywhere(every forest, city)
- save and rewatch your replays
- chieftain mk10 - best armor for that price
- nato has bad AA compared to pact
- recon helo is crucial

I don't really know what else can i add ( i'll edit this post if anything wil come to my mind )
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DelroyMonjo
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Re: Being shafted

Postby DelroyMonjo » Wed 27 Mar 2013 21:07

IMHO, playing NATO seems to require more finesse whereas a lot of the time it seems PACT relies on massed cheap units with some brute force thrown into the mix.
Recon is absolutely essential for both sides!
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Brutoni
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Re: Being shafted

Postby Brutoni » Wed 27 Mar 2013 21:12

Thank you for the replies people.

Is it worth spending all your cash at the start? Or better to keep 200-300 in reserve to react to situations as required?

How many command trucks should you aim to be using at the start? 1? 2?.... Maybe 3 (I suspect that is too much dilution of points!)
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Re: Being shafted

Postby Demonic Spoon » Thu 28 Mar 2013 01:21

1) Are there units that are just terrible?


Most units are good after the latest rebalance. As a general rule, avoid letting other peoples' opinions determine what you use. I love units that others say are terrible, and other times people swear by units I have no luck with.


3) Is NATO really that bad? I played 4 games as PACT and won 2... 1 using the starter deck lol. Seems "quantity has a quality all of its own applies heavily in this game!

PACT isn't really any better at cheap spam than NATO. Don't judge a whole faction by the starter decks.

4) As NATO what should my deck setup look like, what is a good balance of slots between the different options (ie how much infantry, how much tanks, how much in logs etcetc


That...depends way too much for any useful answer to be given. You need enough stuff in each role to satisfy what you want to do. The only "in general" rule which should be reasonably obvious is that you don't need two things that do the exact same thing (Riflemen and Fusiliers, KONKURS and FAGOT infantry...)
5) Is it just me or does the standard game mode favour PACT very heavily... Numbers enable you to quickly sieze ground, on the defense inferior stats matter less, your now in a position that is hard to dislodge while gaining more points than NATO... Sit and bombard the enemy to your hearts content... Seems to happen to me a lot.

PACT is not any better at cheap spam than NATO is. In general, NATO is better at moving fights (due to superior mobility, autocannons, and tank guns/stabilizers) and PACT is better at static fights (infinite ATGMs and artillery)

Any other pointers and tips would be appreciated. I don't mind the complexity. Just don't seem to be able to apply tactics effectively and I'm wondering if I am simply approaching this from the wrong way? I don't mind a learning curve but we all like to win at least occassionally!


The way you talk about "knowing how to apply strategy and tactics" makes me think that you're trying to apply concepts from somewhere else to Wargame. Don't. Wargame has realistic elements, but it is at the end of the day a game and you need to learn this game, and not anything else. As such, without more information it's impossible to say anything else about what you're doing wrong.

Hazarding a guess, given how you seem to be championing the merits of cheap spam I'd guess that one of your problems is that you're exclusively using cheap units that are individually not very good. T-55s have their place but going toe to toe with Abrams they're going to be awful, even in superior numbers. Motostrelci are cheap but Delta Force will eat them easily.

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Re: Being shafted

Postby Norim0101 » Thu 28 Mar 2013 08:26

Brutoni wrote:Is it worth spending all your cash at the start? Or better to keep 200-300 in reserve to react to situations as required?

Better keep like 200 points. When you'll see a rush and don't have proper defense, they can save your ass
Brutoni wrote:How many command trucks should you aim to be using at the start? 1? 2?.... Maybe 3 (I suspect that is too much dilution of points!)

Depends on how many points are given at the start. If its 1500 points game then more than 2 is way too much in my opinion, but when you have 6000 then having 3 CVs is probably better
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Re: Being shafted

Postby varis » Sat 13 Apr 2013 23:49

Any success yet?

Brutoni wrote:2) What units do not perform in the same way you would expect them to in real life (potential a real danger for myself)


Quite a few. For starters, we don't really know how most units would perform in real life.

It sounds like there could be some major issue in your force composition/deployment. You use the wrong units and do the wrong stuff with them. Just a guess. Maybe you don't use cheap units for screen, probing, etc. Choose expensive units for a particular purpose when there is a better option etc. What do you usually roll as NATO?

Also, watch your replays. See how the other players do it.
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Re: Being shafted

Postby Brutoni » Sun 14 Apr 2013 14:57

varis wrote:Any success yet?


We are getting there. In the last week I have moved to about 45% victories in the games I have played :). Although a large number of these were team games. I still struggle when using ranked quick match. Particularly with the lower number of points... I suspect that now I am understanding the game more the issue here is with my habbit of still wanting some nicer units when at 1500 I suspect your Abrams, Lepords, Apaches, Final Cobras etc are still units to avoid except maybe 1 to fufil a specific purpose

varis wrote:
Brutoni wrote:2) What units do not perform in the same way you would expect them to in real life (potential a real danger for myself)


Quite a few. For starters, we don't really know how most units would perform in real life.


This is a very good point. Also on further reading there were some serious step changes from things like the Challenger 1 to the Challenger 2... A hugely different tank and not really just a slight improvement if we are honest!

varis wrote:It sounds like there could be some major issue in your force composition/deployment. You use the wrong units and do the wrong stuff with them. Just a guess. Maybe you don't use cheap units for screen, probing, etc. Choose expensive units for a particular purpose when there is a better option etc. What do you usually roll as NATO?


This is my current NATO deck
Log 5/5
FOB
HEMTT
Jupiter
M577 CPC (have recently found I prefer it to VAB as stray artil shots don't seem to mess it around quite as much)
M151A1 Command

Recon 3/5
Scorpion (Scimitar unlocked)
Gazelle (SNEB unlocked but rarely used)
SpPz Luchs A1 (unlocked tree)

Tank 4/5
Challenger 1 (lovely in larger games or even to hold a point I know the enemy is coming from. Loving them :) )
Chieftain (fully unlocked... Good but slow and fuel guzzling means they are still vulnerable to outflanks)
Lepard (Coming to fully appreciate these... awesome tanks. Not sure if I should have both Chally and Lepard in?)
M551 Sherridan tree (for medium range attacking GP tank... Donno if I should swap? Struggling with NATO tanks in that role!)

Infantry 5/5
Milan f2 + VAB (not liking ATGM infantry if I am honest. Precision tool and often still seem to miss.. engaging too early?)
FAMAS Chas + VAB (seem good enough)
Delta Force + Blackhawk (worth unlocking the Huey tree for the blackhawk. I love them)
Green Jacket + Spartan (serve me well)
Paratroopers + Lynx (shame can't get Paras with Spartan as helicopters are v.vulnerable but they are useful at times)

Support 4/5
Rolland fully unlocked (best of the bad NATO AA. Still seem to struggle with NATO AA in truth)
Chaparral (range is good and at Vet they hit... but slow and log intensive... considering removing?)
MLRS (fun... donno if I should keep. Do net me points when firing corrected shots
M109's (I like these. Don't know if they are the most optimum choice but cheap with choice for Palladins if I need)

Vehicle 2/5
Bradley (good all rounder... struggling to use due to paper thin armour though.. Awesome Autocannon though)
VAB Mephisto (looking for a good/fast ATGM vehicle but NATO ATGM seem to suck and as I said I struggle to hit)

Helicopters 1/5
Cobra tree (cheap at 50 for stopping spam... going up to providing a flexible 65 point helo and if I really need accurate ATGM then the 95 pointer provides double the number of missiles and with good accuracy and stopping power. Really like this tree. So want to go back to Apache but not sure I can justify it!)

So what do you think



varis wrote:Also, watch your replays. See how the other players do it.


Didn't do this to start but doing it religiously now. Is there somewhere we can post these by any chance? I'm getting better but if there is a forum where people analyse these I suspect I may get even better results?
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Dimonay
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Re: Being shafted

Postby Dimonay » Sun 14 Apr 2013 15:17

For the replays http://escalation.eu/

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Norim0101
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Re: Being shafted

Postby Norim0101 » Sun 14 Apr 2013 15:44

Hogs are better at stoping spam, especially because you can have two of them at a price of one cobra :P
For fast atgm i can suggest M151A2 I-TOW
I'm not using ATGM infantry at all (is it bad?)
I think you should get some autocannon AA to dafend CV's in forests (Flakpanzer or Vulcan)
Not sure about Luchs... kinda expensive for what you get imo
Paratroopers - i don't like the to be honst (i don't know why) i prefer Legion FAMAS + AMX-10P
AMX AuF1 is better than paladin (check the thread with artillery comparsion)

M151A1 Command!? Jeep!? are you crazy!? it dies to a fart

What about: Wiesels, Gazelle cannon, AML 60, Marder VTS1, ERC-90 Sagaie?
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