Some common noob mistakes

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DelroyMonjo
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Re: Some common noob mistakes

Postby DelroyMonjo » Fri 20 Jul 2012 03:18

DeuZerre. Well, that's exactly what the Americans, British, and Canadians did in France, 1944. Virtually every island conquered in the Pacific during WWII was done with a mass inf attack over the beaches. Sorry if I didn't mention other instances but those are what came to mind.
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Re: Some common noob mistakes

Postby OpusTheFowl » Fri 20 Jul 2012 16:10

DelroyMonjo wrote:..was done with a mass inf attack over the beaches. Sorry if I didn't mention other instances but those are what came to mind.


Your not including the weeks/months of prep anf tons of ordnance dropped from the air and fired from ships. Beach landings are the modern equivalent of trying to take a castle...and that is also the furthest thing from a rush.

ikalugin will probably hate me for saying this but the only real example of rushes in modern times was on the Eastern Front in WWII with the "human wave" tactic employed by the Red Army.

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Re: Some common noob mistakes

Postby Tac Error » Fri 20 Jul 2012 19:54

The short answer is that in the first period of the GPW, the Red Army did use what we would call "human waves". There was a learning curve for them, and with an understanding of the operational level of war and a general staff system that could study and derive lessons from war experiences, they had clearly moved beyond the stereotyped armed mob described by German writers like Manstein, Guderian and Mellenthin after the initial period, especially in '44-'45. Perhaps we could leave the last word to Ivan Konev in his memoirs "Forty-Five":

When I recall the war and compare its different stages, I feel that at times we underestimate the path we traversed in mastering the art of war during those years. In the fourth year of the war we thought it natural that we could perform such combat missions which, if mentally transferred to the first stage of the war, would be considered incredibly difficult and bordering on the impossible.
Last edited by Tac Error on Sat 21 Jul 2012 09:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some common noob mistakes

Postby Romiros » Sat 21 Jul 2012 09:20

Tac Error wrote: Ivan Konev

Oh, that "general" is not a person whose "memories" can be an authoritative source. We should shot that butcher after Smolensk.

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Re: Some common noob mistakes

Postby DelroyMonjo » Sun 22 Jul 2012 07:17

OpusThe Fowl sez: "Your not including the weeks/months of prep anf tons of ordnance dropped from the air and fired from ships. Beach landings are the modern equivalent of trying to take a castle...and that is also the furthest thing from a rush."
That response was not totally un-anticipated, Opus, and not a single ship or airplane could have landed on the Continent nor could the war have progressed without the groundpounders having actual possession of the land. Sieging the castle is an appropriate analogy but you don't really OWN it until you are inside of it and have broken the defenders! Regarding siege warfare, if I recall, the siege of Leningrad in WWII was a failure which diverted German troops and materiel from other areas of the war. Stalingrad didn't turn out too well for the Germans, either!
As for coming over the beach with months of bombing preceding the invasion, imagine this, as it relates to this game. Give NATO 6000pts and restrict PACT to 1500 or 2000 pts to start. Remember, it was 1944, and the German war machine had been seriously weakened by ~4 years of battles with Russia and years of bombing of industry, airfields and transport by the Allies. Throw in the fact that Germany held back their tank divisions from the beach areas, which may or may not have been crucial, add 2 divisions of paratroopers beyond the beach and French partisans to frustrate and delay German reinforcements and what it comes down to is you still have lightly armed infantry RUSHING the enemy to gain a foothold for further operations. Not even to mention those damned Russians knocking at Germany's eastern front!
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Re: Some common noob mistakes

Postby DoubleTap68 » Mon 23 Jul 2012 14:31

DelroyMonjo wrote:That response was not totally un-anticipated, Opus, and not a single ship or airplane could have landed on the Continent nor could the war have progressed without the groundpounders having actual possession of the land. Sieging the castle is an appropriate analogy but you don't really OWN it until you are inside of it and have broken the defenders! Regarding siege warfare, if I recall, the siege of Leningrad in WWII was a failure which diverted German troops and materiel from other areas of the war. Stalingrad didn't turn out too well for the Germans, either!
As for coming over the beach with months of bombing preceding the invasion, imagine this, as it relates to this game. Give NATO 6000pts and restrict PACT to 1500 or 2000 pts to start. Remember, it was 1944, and the German war machine had been seriously weakened by ~4 years of battles with Russia and years of bombing of industry, airfields and transport by the Allies. Throw in the fact that Germany held back their tank divisions from the beach areas, which may or may not have been crucial, add 2 divisions of paratroopers beyond the beach and French partisans to frustrate and delay German reinforcements and what it comes down to is you still have lightly armed infantry RUSHING the enemy to gain a foothold for further operations. Not even to mention those damned Russians knocking at Germany's eastern front!



Excellent points, Delroy, to which I would add that the bombardment of beach landing sites preceeds the actual landing. You're right in that nothing can happen without boots on the ground in terms of holding objectives, and there are all sorts of accounts (particularly in the Pacific) of the surprising ineffectiveness of some stupendous levels of shelling and bombing. However, if I were a Marine or Soldier hitting a beach, I'd still be awfully grateful for the naval gunfire and air attacks that hit before I did.

As for the 2 panzer divisions, I can't imagine that they would not have had a profound effect on the Normandy landings had they been released. The fact that they stood still for so long is a testament to the sucess of Operation Bodyguard, which was the deception campaign leading up to Overlord. Bodyguard of Lies by Anthony Cave Brown tells the story, highest possible recommendation if you like books of that sort.

One of the best examples of the infantry rush in the 20th century might be the human wave attacks emlpoyed by Communist forces in the Korean War. Scary stuff.

As for the points, you may have just started another all-time debate: point value of a Sherman vs a Tiger vs a Panther vs a T-34. Have at it!
Last edited by DoubleTap68 on Mon 23 Jul 2012 15:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Some common noob mistakes

Postby ikalugin » Mon 23 Jul 2012 14:37

Romiros wrote:
Tac Error wrote: Ivan Konev

Oh, that "general" is not a person whose "memories" can be an authoritative source. We should shot that butcher after Smolensk.

All generals have their downside. The Holy Zhukov included.
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Re: Some common noob mistakes

Postby ikalugin » Mon 23 Jul 2012 14:43

OpusTheFowl wrote:
DelroyMonjo wrote:..was done with a mass inf attack over the beaches. Sorry if I didn't mention other instances but those are what came to mind.


Your not including the weeks/months of prep anf tons of ordnance dropped from the air and fired from ships. Beach landings are the modern equivalent of trying to take a castle...and that is also the furthest thing from a rush.

ikalugin will probably hate me for saying this but the only real example of rushes in modern times was on the Eastern Front in WWII with the "human wave" tactic employed by the Red Army.

Why would I be? First of all what do we define by "human wave tactic"?
I would say that it follows those criteria:
- Lack of preparation (esp. by deep fire means)
- Lack of support measures (ie tanks, aircraft and such to provide mobile firepower)
- Frontal attack, no attempt to flank enemy or use a weakspot (poor use of terrain)
- High density of troops.
- Poor troop control.
- Poor armament (those three points go for the "armed mob look").

Those indeed were common in the initial period of war (esp in 1941, attacks by Moscow Militia as an example). However the lessons were learned and commanders who wasted their manpower were punished (sent into penal companies and battalions to get the taste of their own medicine).

Note that penal units were normally armed with sufficient weapons and were highly motivated, as their death would lead to charges lifted from their fammilies, as well as full support offered to said fammilies in case of their honorable death.
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Re: Some common noob mistakes

Postby ikalugin » Mon 23 Jul 2012 14:46

DoubleTap68 wrote:
DelroyMonjo wrote:That response was not totally un-anticipated, Opus, and not a single ship or airplane could have landed on the Continent nor could the war have progressed without the groundpounders having actual possession of the land. Sieging the castle is an appropriate analogy but you don't really OWN it until you are inside of it and have broken the defenders! Regarding siege warfare, if I recall, the siege of Leningrad in WWII was a failure which diverted German troops and materiel from other areas of the war. Stalingrad didn't turn out too well for the Germans, either!
As for coming over the beach with months of bombing preceding the invasion, imagine this, as it relates to this game. Give NATO 6000pts and restrict PACT to 1500 or 2000 pts to start. Remember, it was 1944, and the German war machine had been seriously weakened by ~4 years of battles with Russia and years of bombing of industry, airfields and transport by the Allies. Throw in the fact that Germany held back their tank divisions from the beach areas, which may or may not have been crucial, add 2 divisions of paratroopers beyond the beach and French partisans to frustrate and delay German reinforcements and what it comes down to is you still have lightly armed infantry RUSHING the enemy to gain a foothold for further operations. Not even to mention those damned Russians knocking at Germany's eastern front!



Excellent points, Delroy, to which I would add that the bombardment of beach landing sites preceeds the actual landing. You're right in that nothing can happen without boots on the ground in terms of holding objectives, and there are all sorts of accounts (particularly in the Pacific) of the surprising ineffectiveness of some stupendous levels of shelling and bombing. However, if I were a Marine or Soldier hitting a beach, I's still be awfully greatful for the naval gunfire and air attacks that hit before I did.

As for the 2 panzer divisions, I can't imagine that they would not have had a profound effect on the Normandy landings had they been released. The fact that they stood still for so long is a testament to the sucess of Operation Bodyguard, which was the deception campaign leading up to Overlord. Bodyguard of Lies by Anthony Cave Brown tells the story, highest possible recommendation if you like books of that sort.

One of the best examples of the infantry rush in the 20th century might be the human wave attacks emlpoyed by Communist forces in the Korean War. Scary stuff.

As for the points, you may have just started another all-time debate: point value of a Sherman vs a Tiger vs a Panther vs a T-34. Have at it!

Depends, if you cannot arm you troops fully even with the best of uber weapons said weapon is next to useless.
Most Panther losses in 1944 and 1945 were outside of combat and in cauldrons, as we had more T34 units that were capable of creating said cauldrons.
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Re: Some common noob mistakes

Postby Newtoma » Mon 23 Jul 2012 23:41

The most contemporary example of a rush strategy would be the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

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