M1 Abrams baseline

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Fri13
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Re: M1 Abrams baseline

Postby Fri13 » Mon 6 May 2013 20:31

SaitoHawkeye wrote:The T72A and B could be pretty scary, but the basic T72 had a lot of flaws and is probably fairly modeled. Though I do think 3 ACC is kinda too low.


To balance the T-72 to same era NATO MBT, it would be enough to give it a +1 accuracy and stabilization normal.
T-72A to get stabilization Normal and T-72B to get Good.
Same time M1 Abrams to get -2 to AP to balance it to other WP MBT.
What would come to Leopard 1 line, all of them should get about -2 front armor.

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Re: M1 Abrams baseline

Postby BTR » Mon 6 May 2013 20:35

Fri13 wrote:T-72M is a T-72 export version with weaker armor, without IR systems etc. Original Polish and former-Czechoslovakian manufactured T-72.
T-72M1 was export version of T-72A. T-72S was export version of T-72B


Т-72M (1980) is the export version of T-72A, T-72M1 (1982) is a modernisation of T-72M with additional 16mm frontal armour and combined armour for the turret.
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Re: M1 Abrams baseline

Postby DiabloTigerSix » Mon 6 May 2013 20:37

That's not the point. The point is that during the Cold War, USA were testing their guns against those export monkey models only because those are the only ones they could get their hands on. I believe the Cold War was alredy over when the test against a Kontakt-5 ERA T-72 was conducted and the M829 deemed as deficient.

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Re: M1 Abrams baseline

Postby REDDQ » Mon 6 May 2013 20:46

BTR wrote:
Fri13 wrote:T-72M is a T-72 export version with weaker armor, without IR systems etc. Original Polish and former-Czechoslovakian manufactured T-72.
T-72M1 was export version of T-72A. T-72S was export version of T-72B


Т-72M (1980) is the export version of T-72A, T-72M1 (1982) is a modernisation of T-72M with additional 16mm frontal armour and combined armour for the turret.

T-72M is basic T72 in every inch with some stuff added from T72A. T72M1 is export version of T72A.

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Re: M1 Abrams baseline

Postby Fri13 » Mon 6 May 2013 20:50

katt wrote:Fri is being deliberately misleading. The tests were done with Kontakt-5 ERA fitted, and it was found that only M829 couldn't penetrate the frontal arc. M829A1 could perforate T-72M's frontal armour when protected by K5.


M829A1 was only for M1A1 and it was available only from 1988 (M829 from 1983), we are talking totally different caliber cannon (M1A1 120mm vs M1/M1IP 105mm).
The test were original T-72 against M1 Abrams what had 105mm cannon.

T-72 front hull armor was 400mm RHA and NATO did not have anything to penetrate that until Leopard 2 came and it had DM13 shells what penetrated 410mm RHA. Ammunition what NATO had for penetration was usually 300-350mm RHA and at best 390mm RHA. In '80s the situation changed and they got better ammunition but again there were T-72A and T-72B what had again much better armors.

And it was not until 1982 Lebanon war (http://www.waronline.org/IDF/Articles/t ... index.html) when Israel have M111 Hetz 105mm shell what was capable to penetrate T-72 front armor but not the turret (Soviets own firing test after Israel claimed to have destroyed 9 T-72 with Merkava what had american M68 cannon.) and then they developed T-72M1.
Edit: Source link
Last edited by Fri13 on Mon 6 May 2013 21:07, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: M1 Abrams baseline

Postby BTR » Mon 6 May 2013 20:54

Т-72М (1980 г.) - экспортный вариант танка Т-72А. Он отличался броневой конструкцией башни, комплектацией боеприпасов и системой коллективной защиты.


T-72M (1980)- export variant of T-72A tank. Had different armor on the turret, ammunition loadout and collective protection system.

Т-72М1 (1982) — модернизация танка Т-72М. Он отличался дополнительным 16-мм броневым листом на верхней лобовой детали корпуса и комбинированной броней башни с песчаными стержнями в качестве наполнителя.


T-72M1 (1982)- modernisation of T-72M. Had additional 16mm armour plate on top frontal armour and combined armor turret with sand rods as filler.

http://armor.kiev.ua/wiki/index.php?title=%D0%A2-72 < I don't have any reason not to trust this information.
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Re: M1 Abrams baseline

Postby SaitoHawkeye » Mon 6 May 2013 21:01

Fri13 wrote:
katt wrote:Fri is being deliberately misleading. The tests were done with Kontakt-5 ERA fitted, and it was found that only M829 couldn't penetrate the frontal arc. M829A1 could perforate T-72M's frontal armour when protected by K5.


M829A1 was only for M1A1 and it was available only from 1988 (M829 from 1983), we are talking totally different caliber cannon (M1A1 120mm vs M1/M1IP 105mm).
The test were original T-72 against M1 Abrams what had 105mm cannon.

T-72 front hull armor was 400mm RHA and NATO did not have anything to penetrate that until Leopard 2 came and it had DM13 shells what penetrated 410mm RHA. Ammunition what NATO had for penetration was usually 300-350mm RHA and at best 390mm RHA. In '80s the situation changed and they got better ammunition but again there were T-72A and T-72B what had again much better armors.

And it was not until 1982 Lebanon war when Israel have M111 Hetz 105mm shell what was capable to penetrate T-72 front armor but not the turret (Soviets own firing test after Israel claimed to have destroyed 9 T-72 with Merkava what had american M68 cannon.) and then they developed T-72M1.


When and where did the US test the original M1 against the original T72? I can't find anything :(
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Re: M1 Abrams baseline

Postby Graphic » Mon 6 May 2013 21:24

k

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Re: M1 Abrams baseline

Postby Fri13 » Mon 6 May 2013 21:35

Graphic wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JJ700tVT_0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpdJuix5ndA

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Re: M1 Abrams baseline

Postby Radioshow » Mon 6 May 2013 21:49

I love how people constantly throw gameplay balance out the window just to have their favorite unit or faction be OP because it's "realistic". This is an alternate universe, all units may not be that same as real world counterparts and PACT was not the military super power everyone thinks it was. They had quantity not quality.

All the stats in the world make no real difference in a "game". If one side was all powerful you would never have an opponent as no one would play as the other team.
[EUG]MadMat wrote:Radioshow is not a troll, he is our resident Doom Prophet.

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