So has British AA been fixed?

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FirmusPiett
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So has British AA been fixed?

Postby FirmusPiett » Sun 2 Jun 2013 23:39

Spoiler : A small official response :
Good news: The issue is being looked into.
solvens wrote:Just passing by to say : The problem is being looked at.
It's still being discussd and many solutions are considered (some emanating from this thread BTW, can you guess which ones ? :mrgreen: ) , so I can't say exactly how or when it's gonna be changed.

That was the PR post of the day, you can continue your discussion now. ;)


That probably means we can expect a solution being put into place some time in the near future. This is true but I have decided to reopen the case until actual changes have been implemented.



Spoiler : Original rant :
Problems:

Rapier's horribad
40 points
>Slower than Chieftain
>Worst range vs. planes for a radar AA
>1750m vs. helicopters... Lower than even FFAR
>Bad availability, along with all other AA systems

Falcon's equally bad
30 points
>Slow
>Inaccurate
>Not very numerous despite low cost (again, a problem spanning all of the AAs in ALB)

Javelins and Blowpipes are MANPADS and essentially it shouldn't be expected of them to serve an offensive anti-aircraft role. That is unfair. They also have poor range.

Now the RAF would have provided good air superiority and fulfilled an anti-aircraft role in that sense but vs. helicopters this isn't really possible. Guns are effective but the range is short and the same goes for infrared missiles mounted on wings. In order for a plane to kill a helicopter, it must get extremely close which makes this technique fairly moot and a no-go unless the situation gets really desperate. Take the Sea Harrier. It's a nice plane vs. helicopters as it mounts 4 sidewinders and can sometimes (rarely) take out 2 helicopters in a single pass. But this is a very, very slow aircraft. Even getting a shot off before being intercepted by a 9K37 is a challenge.

Conclusion:
What this does to the UK is severely limit its options and capabilities, even vs. minor Pact nations. Being unable to disable enemy radar AA with SEAD, it cannot safely rely on its RAF for counter-helo operations. Ground forces are forced to take a more defensive and cautious stance than ever as helicopters cannot be effectively countered by slow AA with low range (worst combination) either. The AA situation is turning out pretty much the same as it was in EE; where you'd have to rush MANPADS forward if you wanted to have any hope defeating a lone enemy helicopter, let alone multiple ones.

Sure, british AA is cheap. It's not even numerous to make up for that though. At least 3 slots in support are required to have at least a slightly 'sturdy' ground AA capability.

As a poster, Hartmaan, has mentioned, a fighter or interceptor is no substitute for a sturdy ground-based AA system.

In conclusion, the UK's role has been relegated to that of the Pact helicopter forces' punch-bag, dispensing free points simply by gracing Pact nations with its presence on the battlefield. The nation is no longer viable.

Suggestions:
These are mere suggestions and there are many options

Option 1:
Increase the activation points given to UK national decks. The UK may as well be a minor along with Norway and Canada, bar the fact that it has rocket helos and the Challenger 1

I don't like this option because it doesn't really fix the problem

Option 2:
- Increase range of Rapier vs. helicopters to around 2625m (maybe keep lower than Falcon's range) and vs. aircraft to 3150m (2800m was always pitiful). Increase cost by 10 or so points.
- Increase range of Falcon slightly vs. helicopters (maybe 2275-2625m?), again perhaps nerfing price slightly to 35 or so.

This is my favourite. It solely concerns the UK's AA capabilities and buffs them, making it playable again.

Option 3:
- Increase availability for all AA systems, or at least worse AA systems. 6 HAWKs per slot is lovely but for those to be just as numerous as the Rapier which costs 20 points less and belongs to a less powerful anti-air nation seems weird.

Option 4:
- Buff RAF's performance vs. helicopters. OR increase the effectiveness of planes vs. helicopters in general, regardless of nation.

Edit 1: almost forgot...
Option 5:
- Add the Chieftain and Challenger Marksman variants :D . The Marksman turret was ordered in 1990 by the Finnish army so at a guess its development would have taken place in the late (although perhaps even early) 1980s. The KA-50, despite a first test flight in 1982, was only introduced into service in 1995. So 80s prototypes as we know are possible.
The Marksman would be heavily armoured and highly accurate, also boasting Gepard-like ranges.
Sure the idea is a little far-fetched but it would be great. I hear it has been campaigned for for a while and to no avail but it's worth a mention anyway.
Could also add the Starstreak-armed Stormer HVM. This vehicle apparently was in a development stage during the 80s/there was a prototype. It did enter service in 1997 but this may simply be down to budget cutbacks or putting the project on hold owing to the British review of Cold War doctrine some time in the 80s which deemed that tracked AA vehicles would not be necessary to field.

Edit 2: I saw this suggestion a little while back in a similar thread and it sounds good...
Option 6:
Works for balance and realism.
- Lower the RAF's toll on availability so that planes get +1 availability. This would mean that you'd save activation points and be able to use more jets (i.e. 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 instead of the current 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 scheme of activation point costs).

Edit 3: Thanks DeuZerre for reminding me.
Option 7:
- Increase Tornado ADV F3 availability to 2 per slot, or Tornado ADV F1 to 3 (or both :D - I can hear people screaming OP already)

This is not a half-hearted fix but it might be a little too 'fragile' still.


Again, this isn't such a cool option; as it calls for a change of the entire meta. Very risky move.

Overall, some points in this thread might come across as short-sighted or a little ridiculous. Sure there are other nations in need of attention perhaps. But my focus is on the UK as it is the nation I like the most. If there is a massive problem with other nations then that is not my primary concern for now. But the facts remain unchanged; the UK is woefully in need of a saviour series of buffs in order for it to fulfil the role it should be able to: that of a first-rate minor nation, one which should perform on par with France and West Germany.

Thank you for reading.

TL;DR: Falcon and Rapier need a buff tbh. Meh, maybe buff the RAF or buff the UK's deck options or availability of AA. But the latter options aren't such preferable ones.

Also, little footnote: without making an entirely new thread, the Challenger 1 does need a little bit of a buff. Maybe +1 main gun accuracy or ROF.

Update:
Patch 1270's notes report that the Falcon has been buffed. This is the only change to British AA. This should suffice, right? Wrong. The Falcon's ROF has been increased. While this improves its performance as a unit it does nothing to actually enhance its capabilities notably beyond what it could already do.

Community Verdict right now seems to be generally in favour of buffing the Falcon and/or the Rapier. There are variations of those idea but generally people are tending toward less broad changes than buffing aircraft vs. helos or any of that business. So option 2 seems to be a favourite based on the amount of support it recieves, my own bias aside.

Fun fact:
This may be useful for Eugen and Marshals in gauging the importance of this subject to a lot of people.
I did a quick count of posts made on this thread in order to measure the balance of support. I included those in the 'yes', 'no', and 'meh' categories.
Yes - 23 (those who profess to feeling that British AA is in need of change and a buff of some sort)
No - 2 (those who do not feel that British AA needs any improving)
Meh - 13 (those that posted about other countries, or did not even touch the subject of British AA or even the game itself)
I did not include any posts after a person's initial post as part of the count. So only people's initial reactions, and not responses or arguments that ensued, were included.

An observation made by Cross:
Cross wrote:Just look at the stats compaired too the British stuff. How is that balanced in the slightest?

Soviet Helicopters.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =150491896
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =150491859

British SPAAG and SPSAM
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =150491818
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =150491775


If you believe in this cause please fight its corner!
If you would like a signature to bolster the cause, place this into your signature:

[ url=http://www.wargame-ee.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=30662][ img ]http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/tarkinfish/BetterAAfortheunitedKingdom_zps15d85684.jpg[/img ][ /url]

(Remove all spaces when copying and pasting that.)


Update #3:
In light of the upcoming patch, I would just like to make some things clear:
- RAF despite being first line of defence lacks any big advantages over other nations' air forces. I would suggest +1 availability to aircraft in the deck editing area, or higher availability on 1 or 2 aircraft (option for 2 x Tornado ADV F3s/higher Jaguar GR.1/Sea Harrier/Tornado ADV F2 availability)
- Rapier is highly unbalanced vs. other nations' AA vehicles and not just in and of itself. The Chaparral and OSA AKM are OP compared to it. Just a look at the specs will make this clear.

Update #4:
The patch has come out obviously. Rapier underwent some extensive changes, and the Falcon recieved a few buffs.
- British Tracked Rapier now set in its optical tracking version, meaning non-radar. Changes are:
* anti-helo range increased to 2625m.
* anti-plane range decreased to 2100m.
* loses the "Radar" trait (and icon).
- British Tracked Rapier road speed decreased from 150 to 110km/h (as any tracked vehicle).

Good stuff. Or is it?
My experience with improved british AA has been pretty good so far. I've killed more MI-24s in 4 games than I had in the last few weeks since this patch.
But of course the Rapier has now effectively lost its anti-jet capabilities and this has left a little bit of a gap which wasn't there before (imo).

How do you find British AA to be now?

This thread is campaigning for SEAD for the UK
viewtopic.php?f=91&t=31430&p=245125#p245125
Such a loadout change might help the UK do what it was supposed to do... that is, defend friendly airspace from enemy air threats. It looks as if the RAF may become the next area of contention.

Sorry Eugen, fantastic game, but these things have to be bought to light.
Last edited by FirmusPiett on Wed 12 Jun 2013 20:14, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: So when will British AA get fixed?

Postby Hartmann » Mon 3 Jun 2013 00:22

It would be very nice to have, since it's really the only thing that's holding GB back as being a viable minor. They have nice units in all other categories, but it all matters very little when the enemy can just go air and you can't do jack about it.

Just make the rapier 2800 against helis. Comparable to a cheaper radar roland with less accuracy.

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Re: So when will British AA get fixed?

Postby orcbuster » Mon 3 Jun 2013 00:25

Lol, bitter norway waaaay over here. We might be getting the NOAH soon though, just a hope with some minor backing but it's there. Would make norway a really viable deck as far as I'm concerned if we're given an improved I-HAWK as a national prototype.
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Re: So when will British AA get fixed?

Postby CantRushThis » Mon 3 Jun 2013 00:26

I'd say give falcons higher (2600? Maybe more?) range vs. Choppers - not vs. planes but just versus choppers, so rapiers don't do both
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Re: So when will British AA get fixed?

Postby DeuZerre » Mon 3 Jun 2013 00:29

Rapier RoF.

It doesn't compensate for the bad apects, but honestly: Increasing its range would make that missiles machinegun OP.

Use TORNADO more. As in real life.
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Re: So when will British AA get fixed?

Postby dumbo » Mon 3 Jun 2013 00:31

I think it was suggested elsewhere that the UK was supposed to be weak in AA, and use their aircraft to counter helicopters - but as you say, that doesn't really work:

- the UK aircraft attacking helicopters get engaged by enemy AA, and it's not that the UK A2A aircraft are special...
[the F2 is an F16A with a bad nosegun, the F3 is a slightly cheaper F16C without the main attraction (medium-range F&F missiles)].
- harriers have the same range vs helicopters as every other aircraft, they also don't have a nosegun.
- and, as you say, no SAED to get rid of the enemy AA.
- nor any A2A choppers.

Whatever the plan is, it doesn't appear to be working at the moment.

DeuZerre wrote:Rapier RoF.


The primary purpose of AA seems to be to deter. Do you want to risk a 170 point, 1 availability aircraft on a roll of the dice vs my AA?
- maybe you need to build up forces, or use artillery or push on the ground first?

Except with the rapier, that's not necessary, you can destroy it from perfect safety with any cheap FFAR chopper that the rapier was supposed to be protecting against o_O.
Last edited by dumbo on Mon 3 Jun 2013 00:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: So when will British AA get fixed?

Postby DeuZerre » Mon 3 Jun 2013 00:34

Well, against helicopters you are indeed kind of screwed... :?

So get the Harriers. Sadly they don't have machineguns for some reason.
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Re: So when will British AA get fixed?

Postby CommissarDornez » Mon 3 Jun 2013 00:44

It'd be lovely to see the British get some form of AA buff, they're one of my favourite nations but they're just borderline unplayable due to the lack of solid AA. I'd have to agree to the range increase and price being upped slightly to go along with this because at the moment you literally do just feed Pact players your juicy Challengers.
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Re: So when will British AA get fixed?

Postby ColKurtz88 » Mon 3 Jun 2013 00:48

Option 2:
- Increase range of Rapier vs. helicopters to around 2625m (maybe keep lower than Falcon's range) and vs. aircraft to 3150m (2800m was always pitiful). Increase cost by 10 or so points.
- Increase range of Falcon slightly vs. helicopters (maybe 2275-2625m?), again perhaps nerfing price slightly to 35 or so.

This is my favourite. It solely concerns the UK's AA capabilities and buffs them, making it playable again.

Yah I second that big time, sure the Tornado is great (can't seem to score hits very often with Harriers...), but it's really pricey and often countered by enemy interceptors. (I cry a bit every time I loose one...)

I think most players would gladly sacrifice some Rapier cost or accuracy for a range that can effectively engage helicopters. 2450-2625 m even would be better than now.

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Re: So when will British AA get fixed?

Postby ikalugin » Mon 3 Jun 2013 00:58

Give British (and W.German) cheap air to air F4?
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