So has British AA been fixed?

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Cross
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Re: So has British AA been fixed?

Postby Cross » Fri 5 Jul 2013 14:00

Even so there needs to be a counter to the bombers in game.
At the moment there is no deterrent for people sending aircraft in to areas full of SAFIRE.

Bunching up isn't the problem.
its a case of extreme low availability of Rapier and the fact that players take a mental note of its location then bomb it and escape with damage and the kill of a rapier battery.

Back in BETA it was a case of sending aircraft to there death if you decided you wanted to bomb there airdef.
The only aircraft capable of this was SEAD and even then it was a gamble.

Now its a case of air defense is almost useless (well it is in the case of rapier useless).
The air def in the game needs a buff on both sides full stop.

And what good is the "flying straight and narrow" after they dropped there ordinance if they just raped your SAMs with bombs?
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Re: So has British AA been fixed?

Postby Cross » Fri 5 Jul 2013 14:11

There is currently No deterent from air attack now.
Back in beta it was a case of "that guys got air defence, best wait untill i neutralise it with Arty or other combined arms tactics before sending these expensive aircraft to there death"

Now guys just charge in cluster bomb SAM, SPAAG and then roll in with the attack helicopters.
Were all guilty of it.

So lets not deny it, air defence is a joke right now.
And rapier is the worst.
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Re: So has British AA been fixed?

Postby David™ » Fri 5 Jul 2013 14:14

Cross wrote:There is currently No deterent from air attack now.
Back in beta it was a case of "that guys got air defence, best wait untill i neutralise it with Arty or other combined arms tactics before sending these expensive aircraft to there death"

Now guys just charge in cluster bomb SAM, SPAAG and then roll in with the attack helicopters.
Were all guilty of it.

So lets not deny it, air defence is a joke right now.
And rapier is the worst.


+1

To take it right down to the basic, it seems that ANTI-AIR in the game, doesn't actually mean ANTI-AIR at all!

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Re: So has British AA been fixed?

Postby DoktorvonWer » Fri 5 Jul 2013 17:04

Look, there can be as much debate about just how much AA should be a deterrent as opposed to an offensive kill measure against planes as you like, but that isn't really the crux of the matter:

Rapier functions as neither for jets. It fills the role of an excellent LAAD against helicopters as it stands presently, but it's important to remember that 2800 range vs helicopters is in practice a lot longer range than 2800 range vs jets; because of the way that the different units manoeuvre and behave. As such, by having the vs jet range at 2100, the Rapier practically has no useful role either destroying or deterring jets, as such a minuscule range puts it shorter-ranged than even many SPAAG, whose role is saturation fire, stunning and softening of jets by the nature of using rapid-fire guns; so in most scenarios, any decent jet needn't worry about AA missiles facing Rapiers as the tiny amount of time they're likely to be within range of any Rapier system exposes them to a minimal possible amount of fire - and this is assuming that the Rapiers have been deployed in a wide, overlapping net; which is the aim but not always possible.


Rapier doesn't need 3000m+ range; that would necessitate a significant price boost; and I doubt such a sweeping change would be desirable for balance in the first place. I maintain that all it needs is its original 2600-2800m range vs jets back, which would - in the scheme of vs jet ranges - be a minor buff, but one that would subtly extend its range just enough that an individual Rapier emplacement has the capability to cover a worthwhile section of airspace and provide at least a deterrent effect.

And if it's felt this necessitates a price increase of 5-10 points, then fine; but the reason it's so important to return its original (already very low, remember) vs jet range is that it's the only missile AA the UK deck has - a deck that already relies on air units for primary air defence, yes, but currently with the 2100-jet-range Rapier lacks even an effective LAAD - LOCAL air defence against jets; there's no alternative and - since Rapier is the only unit that will be available in this role to the UK deck - it makes sense that this unit should provide a balanced air defence that has no major disadvantages, but is inferior to individual specialists against jets, given the UK doctrine. It will always be inferior to long range radar missiles for anti-jet duty; but its old 2800m range would simply make it a practical unit to do something against jets without making it anything special. Boost the price if necessary.



Don't forget also that Rapiers are limited in availability and cards just like any other local missile system - on a normal deck you can get 12 of them; on even a 1980 limited deck, 16 at minimum veterancy.

If we compare it to even the French deck, you have not only longer-ranged missiles in the Roland in the first place, but you get two different units of Roland and Roland 2... On a non-time-limited deck, you can get 16 AMX-30 Rolands, 4 AMX-30 Roland 2s and 8 VLRA Mistrals. 28 missile AA compared to 12 Rapiers. This is a big deal, because you simply don't have the NUMBERS of Rapiers to compensate for their abysmal vs jet range by making a closer-knitted web of AA.




And for people comparing the Rapier price and saying it'd need '70' cost to have a little buff to vs jet:


The AMX-30 Roland has equal accuracy, higher range vs helo, higher range vs jet, more armour, more missiles, is faster and you get MORE OF THEM per card. It has a negligible 1 less HE damage per missile. And it costs 45 points compared to the Rapier's 40.

The French prototype AMX-30 Roland 2, for price comparison again, has a huge 2800m vs helo range and 3500m vs jet range (for a LAAD-style unit with excellent anti-helo at 60 points, those are really high) - more armour, more missiles, more accuracy, higher speed and better optics. All of this for 60 points. Yet it's been said on here that simply giving the Rapier its old 2800m versus jets range should make it cost 70 points? That's damned crazy.
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Re: So has British AA been fixed?

Postby snowburn » Fri 5 Jul 2013 17:11

DoktorvonWer wrote:The French prototype AMX-30 Roland 2, for price comparison again, has a huge 2800m vs helo range and 3500m vs jet range (for a LAAD-style unit with excellent anti-helo at 60 points, those are really high) - more armour, more missiles, more accuracy, higher speed and better optics. All of this for 60 points. Yet it's been said on here that simply giving the Rapier its old 2800m versus jets range should make it cost 70 points? That's damned crazy.


but roland 2 is vulnerable to SEAD. if devs make a rapier variant with 2800 range against planes it must be radar based and cost 50-60-
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Re: So has British AA been fixed?

Postby DoktorvonWer » Fri 5 Jul 2013 17:18

snowburn wrote:
DoktorvonWer wrote:The French prototype AMX-30 Roland 2, for price comparison again, has a huge 2800m vs helo range and 3500m vs jet range (for a LAAD-style unit with excellent anti-helo at 60 points, those are really high) - more armour, more missiles, more accuracy, higher speed and better optics. All of this for 60 points. Yet it's been said on here that simply giving the Rapier its old 2800m versus jets range should make it cost 70 points? That's damned crazy.


but roland 2 is vulnerable to SEAD. if devs make a rapier variant with 2800 range against planes it must be radar based and cost 50-60-


True, but no. The Roland 2 may be vulnerable to SEAD, but it also has a vs jet range of 3500m. To think that asking for a 2700-2800m range un-nerf to the Rapier makes it in any way comparable is madness. I concede already that it may merit a 45-50 point cost to be safe, but the notion that it'd be a wildly huge upgrade that necessitates huge price increases is ludicrous.
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Re: So has British AA been fixed?

Postby snowburn » Fri 5 Jul 2013 17:26

DoktorvonWer wrote:
snowburn wrote:
DoktorvonWer wrote:The French prototype AMX-30 Roland 2, for price comparison again, has a huge 2800m vs helo range and 3500m vs jet range (for a LAAD-style unit with excellent anti-helo at 60 points, those are really high) - more armour, more missiles, more accuracy, higher speed and better optics. All of this for 60 points. Yet it's been said on here that simply giving the Rapier its old 2800m versus jets range should make it cost 70 points? That's damned crazy.


but roland 2 is vulnerable to SEAD. if devs make a rapier variant with 2800 range against planes it must be radar based and cost 50-60-


True, but no. The Roland 2 may be vulnerable to SEAD, but it also has a vs jet range of 3500m. To think that asking for a 2700-2800m range un-nerf to the Rapier makes it in any way comparable is madness. I concede already that it may merit a 45-50 point cost to be safe, but the notion that it'd be a wildly huge upgrade that necessitates huge price increases is ludicrous.


how about:
55-60 points/3000mts range against planes/radar based missiles (and small acuracy/dmg buff)?

rapier have superior ROF, so almost no aircraft can escape once engaged.
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Re: So has British AA been fixed?

Postby Cross » Fri 5 Jul 2013 17:39

snowburn wrote:
snowburn wrote:The French prototype AMX-30 Roland 2, for price comparison again, has a huge 2800m vs helo range and 3500m vs jet range (for a LAAD-style unit with excellent anti-helo at 60 points, those are really high) - more armour, more missiles, more accuracy, higher speed and better optics. All of this for 60 points. Yet it's been said on here that simply giving the Rapier its old 2800m versus jets range should make it cost 70 points? That's damned crazy.



mate they can escape and they doo.

Why not make Rapier SACLOS and RADAR kind of like the CEV ARVRE had IDF and Direct fire drawing from the same ammo that the AVRE CVE did.

For example
Weapon 1 in unit card
SACLOS ANTI Helicopter only with its current range so if you turned of radar it couldn't hit jets.

Weapon 2 in unit card
And RADAR anti fixed wing only so its only chance to hit jets is if it turned on its radar, thus making it extremely susceptible to SEAD. So if you turned of its radar it has no chance in hell at hitting fixed wing, and if you leave it on pact can shoot it to bits with SEAD.

Spliting these two means would more accurately portray the rapier and give it its range against fixed wing but also make it vulnerable to SEAD.
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Re: So has British AA been fixed?

Postby DoktorvonWer » Fri 5 Jul 2013 17:40

snowburn wrote:
DoktorvonWer wrote:True, but no. The Roland 2 may be vulnerable to SEAD, but it also has a vs jet range of 3500m. To think that asking for a 2700-2800m range un-nerf to the Rapier makes it in any way comparable is madness. I concede already that it may merit a 45-50 point cost to be safe, but the notion that it'd be a wildly huge upgrade that necessitates huge price increases is ludicrous.


how about:
55-60 points/3000mts range against planes/radar based missiles (and small acuracy/dmg buff)?

rapier have superior ROF, so almost no aircraft can escape once engaged.


The details don't bother me much. Given it's the only AA the UK has and it's already heavily availability limited, I don't see a balance-need for them to be vulnerable to SEAD; it's not possible to have large amounts of them. I'd be more than happy with the original already quite low ~2750m range vs jets that it previously had in its current format; the still lower range compared to radar AAs would help keep its RoF advantage down as the engagement time available (due to range being the major factor in determining this) would still be low. It's only a small upgrade that would make it better able to practically attack jets, with minimal effect on lethality.

Some of the pricing - you seem to be proposing a fairly huge 15-20 point increase - seems to be based on the pricing of the Osa missiles on the Pact side. I'd suggest that they're probably 5 points overpriced, if anything. 45-50 points for Rapier with a 2750m range vs jets doesn't sound unreasonable at all; you only get 12 of them maximum anyway, and 2750m vs jets is still very short ranged.


Cross wrote:
Why not make Rapier SACLOS and RADAR kind of like the CEV ARVRE had IDF and Direct fire drawing from the same ammo that the AVRE CVE did.

For example
Weapon 1 in unit card
SACLOS ANTI Helicopter only with its current range so if you turned of radar it couldn't hit jets.

Weapon 2 in unit card
And RADAR anti fixed wing only so its only chance to hit jets is if it turned on its radar, thus making it extremely susceptible to SEAD.


They'd have to have separate missile stocks for each due to the game programming, which would be a mess.

A 2700-2800m range versus jets is still not much in the scheme of things, but gives it a role. There's no need to buff the entire deck by making Rapier really good vs jets; but it does need to be able to use its existing merits to some extent against jets; and the pricing of comparable NATO systems like Roland just go to show that the paranoia in this thread about boosting it's price by 15-25 points is just crazy.
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Re: So has British AA been fixed?

Postby Cross » Fri 5 Jul 2013 17:45

I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard?
I mean The AVRE if you fired its gun in direct ie 4 rounds. It would take 4 rounds of the IDF gun.
Drawing its ammo from the same source.
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