On USMC and VDV

User avatar
another505
More than 10 000 messages. Soldier you are the leader of all armies!
Posts: 12907
Joined: Sun 21 Jul 2013 05:18
Location: Hiatus
Contact:

On USMC and VDV

Postby another505 » Thu 22 Dec 2016 06:25

Just some ideas how to make both of them more viable individually as a specialization compare other ones like mechanized yet without making USA/USSR too stronk or out of its own flavour. I won't make solutions that has been asked forever, like delta farce 90.

VDV and USMC are very powerful individual military branch, and if both of them are viable as other mech spec, they will offer very unique gameplay and thematic flavour. I do hope Eugen improve them, it will give more variety to specs.

probably won't see any of these implemented in wargame but whatever

Mandatory Propaganda:
I guess its to recruit POGS who like DnD....


Remove Capitalist :^

(I have no idea what they are singing other what than the title tells but it sounds nice, thats all I care)

Image
USMC:
Brief Summary: Its quite solid, it doesn't have any major weakness for a specialization but it also lacks any reason to be chosen. Its just subpar in general, spec. gives too little advantages, no point in the battlefield.



Lack of ASF or unnecessary restriction in the airtab
its odd that marine specs have such heavy retrictions on planes which is their bonuses, and at the same time, other spec gets all planes including marines. Is like an armored spec but you are restricted to half of the options for tanks

Possible Solutions:
Allowing all planes will solve their ASF problem and allow more options for them. Marine needs their planes,

Marine aren't cost efficients

Well, being your main fighting force, its not cost inefficient. Its not terrible, but could and should be improved.

Possible Solution
A way to improve is to actually make all 15men shock infantry cheaper by 5pts. It was suggested before by kiheer but I always thought about it too. This way, the relation of USA with other decks' infantry are pretty much the same since every 15men gets this buff. but now USMC gets a cost efficient option.

viewtopic.php?f=155&t=58894

Lack of Tanks
It does have the most and best tanks for Marine spec, but its lackluster still and again, in general USMC really has no reason to be in the battlefield, both its infantry and tanks aren't good enough. And the lack of atgm infantry makes it a more apparent weakness

Possible Solution:
M1 HC gets 2 cards. Even for USA/NORAD, its not crazy. they have only 1 super heavy and 1 secondary heavy, compare to other coalitions like CMW which gets 3 Chally 2, 6 Chally 1mk3.
BD 4 KMS, 4 K1a1
EC 2 leo2a5, and 3 Leclerc
and so on and so forth. Even USSR individually has more high end heavies than NORAD.

No Openings
There is just no good opening for USMC.
For air opening, Super cobra can't give sufficient air to air helicopter capability and huey doesnt have any sufficient armaments.

For Motorized, with humvee is quite possible, delta force and smaw are effective but lav-25 isn't good enough and avengers are more of ambush unit, cannot defend the motorized company in the opening.

For Mechanized, its tanks even with 2cards of HC can't beat super heavies, and it lacks any sort of mid-long range IFV

Possible Solution:
Both air and mechanized can't be helped. Huey can't be armed, super cobras could only carry 2 missiles. For mech, USMC does lack the tanks and IFV

Only way is motorized.

Humvee(holy shit, another505 is asking for USA BUFF!!)
Getting 1 av around is going to be "mostly" useless especially in opening since it doesnt do anything against AC/RPG. Giving it some speed buff like kiheer and others had suggested would help. 95kmph would be nice. It slightly faster than VAB but VAB does have the 1 useless AV which isn't completely useless if you are able to sneak behind, it will able to protect itself from other MG transport and win. Just soooooo rare.

Fuch is 10kmph faster but has weaker MG. And I rather let EC keeps its advantage for an infantry oriented coalition.


Bushmaster 1 buff
- is a controversy , but nerf its accuracy to like 50percent and give like 10-15% rof would help a lot. Without getting out of its hierarchy of being shit. So it can escort the opening. The Lav-25 is just lowly armored, and weak dps. In the opening motorized rush, it gets shitted on. I dont think it will change bradleys too much.

Option 2: Buff Lav-25 recons to 20pts. At least you can spam em. at 25pts currently, is way too close to hachi nana shiki which is 30pts, has 2 av which means a LOT against AC, and higher DPS


VDV:
Image

Brief Summary: They are tough in close range and open fields. Requires a lot of damn micro to be effective. Sucks in mid range, and has trouble against MG3 Mech decks and medium tanks.

anti tank helo aren't reliable (oh well)
Anti tank helos arent reliable, being one of the main fighting force for airborne, being unreliable and easy to shut down is terrible. i have mentioned it before in a long thread about how AA shuts down anti tank helos way too easily and there aren't any micros that can allow the helo player to circumvent it unlike other units such as tanks vs atgm and so on.

Possible Solution:
This is such a huge thing that i wouldnt bother being fixed/improve now. I would like to make a separate thread of how should anti tank helicopters get a bigger role ingame instead of anti tank planes which makes gameplay of suicide atgm planes or instant panic buttons....

meh infantry grinder, no forest IFV.
Meh infantry grinder. VDV75 is the main fighting force of the airborne deck, and as 20pts shock, compare to many many other 20pts shock, way below average. But since you can take them elite, it some whats makes them viable.
Spetznas are still overpriced.

The BMD series are strictly for open field, none of them can be in forest which doesnt help their forest grinding ability.

Possible Solutions:
There isn't a way to buff their IFV so buff infantry instead. However, buffing RPK-74 might be just as controversial as buffing M60/PKM alone

Spetsnaz and LJ 90 needs a 5pt price buff. So they are more cost effective in counter MG-3 and minimi hordes
viewtopic.php?f=155&t=58982

RPG 16 gets 980m anti tank range, it has really long range in real life, it has more range than CGM3 and RPG 29 that has the same range ingame. Would help the subpar Kommandosi too. VDV 75 can't drop to 15pts, and MG can't be buff, so buff their AT range more flavourfully of what it is irl.
viewtopic.php?f=155&t=58752

Not needed at all, but BMD-3 irl has a bow mounted AGL, would somewhat help in forest or make it a high end IFV for VDV. It is already a fragile beast, at least make it bite really hard.
http://www.military-today.com/apc/bmd_3.htm
Carries 500 rounds.
lack of mid- long range AA

Lack of mid-long range AA, strela10m as your best is quite a headache. Not every time you can commit so much pts to get ASF and ASF for air defence is terribly risky when enemy has lots of long range AA.

Possible Solution:
Strela 10m3 gets to USSR. USSR had in 1989. But it needs to be tone down. Strela10m3 has no range improvement over Strela10m, it should stay 2625 but keep its accuracy and HE which did get improve with better seeker and warhead.


No tanks
well its airborne, expect nothing. But it is a huge weakness in mobility in attack or defense against spam/ infantry attack

Possible solution:

Probably won't happen, but reroll BMP 685 into Sprut SD. the former is already a proto but very useless one, i had lost it against TH 495 in forest(before the ifv rebalance) even though it got the first shot off. The Sprut SD does have basis to be ingame.

In 1982, the Central Research Institute of "precision engineering" by order of the USSR Ministry of Defense began developing a light 125-mm self-propelled anti-tank floating armor. In the same year, before the commission of the Presidium of the Council of Ministers was presented model sample of ACS based on BMP-2. The project is approved, the challenge to continue the work in this direction was given to the MIC. In 1985, under the guidance of designers AV Shabalin and VI Nasedkina development of fundamentally new armament was launched. However, in connection with the restructuring and the subsequent collapse of the Soviet Union was able to finish the project only at the beginning of zero. In 2001, the design of the shop came out of ACS 'Sprut-SD ". This was followed by testing, after which in 2006 self-propelled Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov by the order was adopted by the Russian Armed Forces.


viewtopic.php?f=155&t=59029&start=130
viewtopic.php?f=155&t=58977&start=310
History of its Creation:
http://www.aif.ru/dontknows/file/chto_p ... 5_sprut-sd

Subpar in helo rush,

A huge problem of VDV deck is being bad at helo opening, mi24v are just extremely expensive to give air cover and loses to tzefa E and DAPS which are cheaper and at the same price as HAP which gets better stats except 4 mistral vs 8 igla, i wrote a long thread about the a2a helo should be price rebalanced and i hope that would be implemented.

Possible Solution:
I made a long thread and reasoning of how a2a helo should be priced at and all of them should get a price buff.
viewtopic.php?f=155&t=58948

-Extra Bonuses on Specialization-

Airborne should get +2 recon and veterancy, but decrease the helicopter from 9 to 7.
-Airborne should be more attack behind the line/sabotage/reconaissance force thematically. Recon also provides more ground options.
-9 cards of helicopter is completely useless, even helo rusher doesnt need that many!

Marines spec gets 9 cards of infantry
- being your main fighting force, restricting it to seven is just terrible. Not to mention, generally you get worse tanks than mech/motorized which gets good infantry bonuses too.
- and again, all airplane options.

If you have not noticed, I did make a lot more suggestions for VDV than USMC, is more of I know the ins and outs of VDV a lot better than USMC and know what possible irl units can be added but also the USMC buffs are a lot bigger(HC, 9 cards of inf, all planes, better marines)
. Please tell me other units or ways to buff USMC, don't ask for javelin or super dragon buff though.
Last edited by another505 on Thu 22 Dec 2016 07:18, edited 2 times in total.
Image
Of Salt

User avatar
wargamer1985
Brigadier
Posts: 3299
Joined: Sat 4 May 2013 00:36
Contact:

Re: On USMC and VDV

Postby wargamer1985 » Thu 22 Dec 2016 06:43

In general, a good list and a hearty +1

Although for the HMMWV it should really go to 110kph, making it faster than comparable transports, but less durable, not amphibious among having a small amount of ammunition for the .50 Cal.

Also for Spetsnaz I would generally prefer re-rolling them into a traditional SF, but since that isn't likely to happen a -5 CP price buff would be warranted.
APPLY TO THE GLORIOUS CULT OF THE WARHAWK! LIBERATING NAZIS SINCE 1939!
Image

User avatar
another505
More than 10 000 messages. Soldier you are the leader of all armies!
Posts: 12907
Joined: Sun 21 Jul 2013 05:18
Location: Hiatus
Contact:

Re: On USMC and VDV

Postby another505 » Thu 22 Dec 2016 06:47

wargamer1985 wrote:In general, a good list and a hearty +1

Although for the HMMWV it should really go to 110kph, making it faster than comparable transports, but less durable, not amphibious among having a small amount of ammunition for the .50 Cal.

Also for Spetsnaz I would generally prefer re-rolling them into a traditional SF, but since that isn't likely to happen a -5 CP price buff would be warranted.


about HMV, durability of 1av and 0 is just really little difference. I think making it faster than VAB is enough. I rather let EC keep its Fuch's advantage since they are more infantry oriented coalition.

yea spets and lj90 reroll aint going to happen
Image
Of Salt

User avatar
Killertomato
More than 10 000 messages. Soldier you are the leader of all armies!
Posts: 13578
Joined: Mon 9 Jul 2012 02:46
Contact:

Re: On USMC and VDV

Postby Killertomato » Thu 22 Dec 2016 06:50

I would rather the USMC get access to M1A1HA.

They used some in the Gulf War, transferred from Army stocks.
orcbuster wrote:USSR gets prototype marsupials, why would you need moose when you got stuff with kickers like that AND transport capability? And I'm not even gonna START on the french Marsupilami, I don't even think thats a real animal! Why no trolls for Norway?

User avatar
hansbroger
Lieutenant General
Posts: 4337
Joined: Sun 28 Jul 2013 03:45
Contact:

Re: On USMC and VDV

Postby hansbroger » Thu 22 Dec 2016 07:09

Sprut-SD is the kind of proto I like to see because it was delayed only by budgetary limits and actually served eventually. Love the Bushmaster changes and the RPG-16 as well. AGL on the BMD-3 seems fine too, considering its already constrained availability and lower number of cards, you take a serious manpower hit by using them, and they're hardly a Merkava IIA when it comes to the armor and ability to take them with weapons slots.... ;)

Definitely speed up the Humvees!

Another useful change would be to give BMD-1 and BMD-2 their bow PKT's as a separate weapon which would improve their firepower in forest ranges of <900m but would be of negligible value in semi-open terrain/town assault ranges against most AT. These are independently aimed, non-coaxial weapons that currently are not modeled, the vehicle just happens to have a spare weapons slot as well. They have such low armor that they could likely receive these MGs without a price penalty.

Secondly the BMD series could be given better stealth than most IFVs given their small size AND adjustable suspension. the above film not only illustrates the BMD's low profile but also its ability to lower itself into concealment behind minor/marginal terrain features with no preparation of terrain as well as its ability to move between firing positions while in this stealthy low profile! This would prove highly vital to these barely armored magnesium boxes and make them more viable in long range combat against tanks, again this would make the existing BMD and BTR-D far more viable as IFVs and further differentiate the BMD line from the BMP line.
Projectnordic in game! will likely see you on pact/red dragons/french!
Image

User avatar
another505
More than 10 000 messages. Soldier you are the leader of all armies!
Posts: 12907
Joined: Sun 21 Jul 2013 05:18
Location: Hiatus
Contact:

Re: On USMC and VDV

Postby another505 » Thu 22 Dec 2016 07:14

Giving stealth to BMD would be broken and i rather not open a can of worm for it. Size buff could be given but hardly helpful or needed.

The bow mounted MG for BMD series wouldnt be bad, but i still wouldnt move them into the forest since they are too fragile, and SPS way too low to stun infantry before getting returned fire.

In general, neither of them really improves much and feels too much work.
Image
Of Salt

User avatar
RoadkillRodger
Lieutenant
Posts: 1148
Joined: Fri 9 May 2014 07:24
Contact:

Re: On USMC and VDV

Postby RoadkillRodger » Thu 22 Dec 2016 07:40

I think I agreed with pretty much everything in there. Maybe not opening the whole plane tab to marines but I guess we'll see whether Xeno's changes pan out.

Unrelated, but also liked the +2 to airborne vet- that spec has never been viable.

codextero
Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 2334
Joined: Sat 13 Dec 2014 02:52
Contact:

Re: On USMC and VDV

Postby codextero » Thu 22 Dec 2016 07:43

another505 wrote:about HMV, durability of 1av and 0 is just really little difference. I think making it faster than VAB is enough. I rather let EC keep its Fuch's advantage since they are more infantry oriented coalition.

yea spets and lj90 reroll aint going to happen


Other than 0 takes double damage from AP?

5 AP kills a humvee, that's both rolls from 2A72 connecting. The same burst does 6 damage to VAB.

User avatar
hansbroger
Lieutenant General
Posts: 4337
Joined: Sun 28 Jul 2013 03:45
Contact:

Re: On USMC and VDV

Postby hansbroger » Thu 22 Dec 2016 07:52

another505 wrote:Giving stealth to BMD would be broken and i rather not open a can of worm for it. Size buff could be given but hardly helpful or needed.

The bow mounted MG for BMD series wouldnt be bad, but i still wouldnt move them into the forest since they are too fragile, and SPS way too low to stun infantry before getting returned fire.

In general, neither of them really improves much and feels too much work.


Improving the lethality and viability of BMD/BTR-D is central to the viability of VDV. VDV are built around the BMD (to an even greater degree in Wargame) and in the (altogether likely) continued absence of Sprut their viability against anything other than a BD airborne deck is dependent on getting the most out of the BMD/BTR-D series of fighting vehicles. Realistically, other than the SD-44 self locomoting, non segmented 85mm divisional gun as an AT team and the ASU-57/85 there's really nothing else for them to use ITF.

Whaddya know.... 5 man crew.....
Image

The stealth doesn't have to be full on "medium" like on say the M3A2 but a step up from its current "poor" rating could help small airborne AFVs like it and the Weisel series be more useful and viable. This would certainly be an excellent development for those variants armed with slow 2450m ATGMs. They would hardly be OP unless they had stealth that somehow exceeded that which is already given to ATGM armed recon IFVs already in game. If there was a vehicle that actually deserved stealth in game it would be BMD. With the suspension in the low setting the BMD or BTR-D can practically disappear into a field of chest high grass, let alone most brush or foliage.

Given the BMD family's selection of laughably imprecise ATGMs and short range guns I hardly see how they could be broken if moderately more stealthy, especially with the vast proliferation of cheap "Very Good" optics ground recon in Bluefor (let alone the "exceptional" stuff). The fact that they die to a sneeze and have no stabilizers on their ATGMs make it a viable concept in my mind and one that would maybe only require an adjustment of weapon noise if at all.

The MG's while minor are a marginal gain that could be applied to the BTR-D D/ZD APCs as well and would help VDV, if only a little and at great risk through exposure of the afv to enemy fire.
Projectnordic in game! will likely see you on pact/red dragons/french!
Image

User avatar
hansbroger
Lieutenant General
Posts: 4337
Joined: Sun 28 Jul 2013 03:45
Contact:

Re: On USMC and VDV

Postby hansbroger » Thu 22 Dec 2016 08:18

DDR and USSR airborne are both interesting in that they could both justifiably operate a 5 man AT squad armed with self locomoting SD-57/SD-44 57mm/85mm anti tank guns. (With the possibility of a unicorn 125mm AT gun ie 2A45.) These would be non-segmented units with no more set up than a typical RR/ATGM team in game. They would be distinct to DDR/USSR and a uniquely flavourful menace to APCs, IFVs and cheap tanks. The guns could move with their crews at 20-30km/h over rough terrain independent of a prime mover over distances up to 25 km.

They were used in the artillery regiments anti tank batteries of airborne divisions and for a while, brigades. In other words a realistic, flavourful, ITF fielded means of getting tank firepower into the VDV deck without Unicorns/Protos.

Yes you can move them by Helo, sling load or internally.
Image

Both systems could fire at 15-20 r/m.

To illustrate the applicability of these to both USSR and EB:

DDR SD-57 (analogous to ASU-57 kinetics)
Image

DDR SD-44 (analogous to D-44 kinetics)
Image
Projectnordic in game! will likely see you on pact/red dragons/french!
Image

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: keldon and 33 guests