The F35 saga is continuing on

User avatar
Graphic
More than 10 000 messages. Soldier you are the leader of all armies!
Posts: 10587
Joined: Mon 30 Apr 2012 10:18
Location: Battle Born
Contact:

Re: The F35 saga is continuing on

Postby Graphic » Sat 5 Jul 2014 06:33

Mikeboy wrote:
Graphic wrote:Canada should buy F-15SE Silent Eagle. :D

I'm not as pessimistic about the F-35 as some, but I'm not a huge fan either. I'll always be biased towards the F-15.


I really want someone to get the Silent Eagle. Korea perhaps one day.


Amen to that. I'd love for the legacy to continue somewhere, I don't care where.
k

Agiel7
Warrant Officer
Posts: 461
Joined: Mon 16 Apr 2012 12:13
Contact:

Re: The F35 saga is continuing on

Postby Agiel7 » Sat 5 Jul 2014 07:59

Graphic wrote:
Mikeboy wrote:
Graphic wrote:Canada should buy F-15SE Silent Eagle. :D

I'm not as pessimistic about the F-35 as some, but I'm not a huge fan either. I'll always be biased towards the F-15.


I really want someone to get the Silent Eagle. Korea perhaps one day.


Amen to that. I'd love for the legacy to continue somewhere, I don't care where.


Though I'm among the biggest defenders of the F-35...

I hope that one day in the far flung future, children shall visit the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum with an F-15 on display. On the informational plaque, there will be but one word:

"Undefeated."
Image
.gif by Pilotasso of the ED forums.

User avatar
Darth-Lampshade
Captain
Posts: 1680
Joined: Thu 10 May 2012 20:12
Location: CT, USA
Contact:

Re: The F35 saga is continuing on

Postby Darth-Lampshade » Sat 5 Jul 2014 08:12

I'd love to see us upgrade our F-15Es to a near F-15SE standard. Don't bother with the weapon bays but the other refinements would be good.
When in doubt blame UGBEAR.

User avatar
katt
Lieutenant General
Posts: 4060
Joined: Tue 13 Mar 2012 20:42
Contact:

Re: The F35 saga is continuing on

Postby katt » Sat 5 Jul 2014 09:58

Darth-Lampshade wrote:What can you do with the F-16 or F/A-18 that you'll never be able to do with the F-35?


Nothing, really.

Upgrades to the 30+ year old F-16 design? We can do better than that. We need to do better than that.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KAI_T-50_Golden_Eagle

This could be a possibility for replacement of F-16 in NATO inventory.

If an engine fire is the worst thing that happens in the F-35 program we should be grateful. With the teen-series fighters you had crashes and sometimes lives lost.


Costing about 40-50% higher than anticipated, and five times (as opposed to two-three times) as much as legacy aircraft is actually the worst thing that has happened, actually.

It's fairly significant. It means that the USAF will probably procure about a third what it ordered.

There are also issues with agility (and strike radius) of the F-35, given its compromised structure due to being a V/STOL design. Remember that the plane was never built as a fighter aircraft, it was built as a cheap, stealth, V/STOL strike aircraft for precision bombing of bridges and command centers in Eastern Europe. It accomplished two of these, and one of them is comparable to legacy aircraft with a targeting pod for 500% the price.

The F-35C will likely only be procured by the USMC as well, given its rather poor strike radius compared to X-47B UCASS, and only Marines will be operating them off USN carriers.

Darth-Lampshade wrote:I'd love to see us upgrade our F-15Es to a near F-15SE standard. Don't bother with the weapon bays but the other refinements would be good.


Just paint them black.

That would provide a similar level of RCS reduction while dramatically reducing O-S.

F-15s are too old to continue operating anyway. F-22 may have ended up being significantly cheaper had production continued.
Image
人◕ ‿‿ ◕人◕ ‿‿ ◕人◕ ‿‿ ◕人◕ ‿‿ ◕人◕ ‿‿ ◕人◕ ‿‿ ◕人◕ ‿‿ ◕人◕ ‿‿ ◕人◕ ‿‿ ◕人

User avatar
Darth-Lampshade
Captain
Posts: 1680
Joined: Thu 10 May 2012 20:12
Location: CT, USA
Contact:

Re: The F35 saga is continuing on

Postby Darth-Lampshade » Sat 5 Jul 2014 11:05


Great for a trainer/light attack aircraft but outside of that it is something of a step backwards from the F-16.

Costing about 40-50% higher than anticipated, and five times (as opposed to two-three times) as much as legacy aircraft is actually the worst thing that has happened, actually.

I can't comment on how much we are paying Lockheed but in some respects that is a different issue entirely.

It's fairly significant. It means that the USAF will probably procure about a third what it ordered.

God I hope not, we haven't fallen so low.

There are also issues with agility (and strike radius) of the F-35, given its compromised structure due to being a V/STOL design. Remember that the plane was never built as a fighter aircraft, it was built as a cheap, stealth, V/STOL strike aircraft for precision bombing of bridges and command centers in Eastern Europe. It accomplished two of these, and one of them is comparable to legacy aircraft with a targeting pod for 500% the price.

Strike radius compared to what? Same regarding agility, it compares with the F-16 and F/A-18, sure it isn't comparable to the F-22 and it falls behind the Eurocanards in some aspects, but it will still be good enough for its intended role. The fact that cutting back the F-22 program and the Navy's recent history of screw-ups (A-12, A-X) doesn't mean it is the fault of the F-35.

The F-35C will likely only be procured by the USMC as well, given its rather poor strike radius compared to X-47B UCASS, and only Marines will be operating them off USN carriers.

If the USMC goes ahead with the F-35C the Navy would be downright foolish not to acquire any, And the idea of the USMC flying a more advanced aircraft than the USN? I can't imagine they'd stand for that.

Great for a trainer/light attack aircraft but outside of that it is something of a step backwards from the F-16.

Costing about 40-50% higher than anticipated, and five times (as opposed to two-three times) as much as legacy aircraft is actually the worst thing that has happened, actually.

I can't comment on how much we are paying Lockheed but in some respects that is a different issue entirely.

It's fairly significant. It means that the USAF will probably procure about a third what it ordered.

God I hope not, we haven't fallen so low.

There are also issues with agility (and strike radius) of the F-35, given its compromised structure due to being a V/STOL design. Remember that the plane was never built as a fighter aircraft, it was built as a cheap, stealth, V/STOL strike aircraft for precision bombing of bridges and command centers in Eastern Europe. It accomplished two of these, and one of them is comparable to legacy aircraft with a targeting pod for 500% the price.

Strike radius compared to what? Same regarding agility, it compares with the F-16 and F/A-18, sure it isn't comparable to the F-22 and it falls behind the Eurocanards in some aspects, but it will still be good enough for its intended role. The fact that cutting back the F-22 program and the Navy's recent history of screw-ups (A-12, A-X) doesn't mean it is the fault of the F-35.

The F-35C will likely only be procured by the USMC as well, given its rather poor strike radius compared to X-47B UCASS, and only Marines will be operating them off USN carriers.

If the USMC goes ahead with the F-35C the Navy would be downright foolish not to acquire any, And the idea of the USMC flying a more advanced aircraft than the USN? I can't imagine they'd stand for that.

F-15s are too old to continue operating anyway. F-22 may have ended up being significantly cheaper had production continued.

[/quote]
The E-series F-15s are somewhat newer than their older brethren. Stronger airframes too. More life left in them.
When in doubt blame UGBEAR.

User avatar
katt
Lieutenant General
Posts: 4060
Joined: Tue 13 Mar 2012 20:42
Contact:

Re: The F35 saga is continuing on

Postby katt » Sat 5 Jul 2014 11:34

T-50 is only marginally reduced from F-16 in capability, it's also half the cost and is being considered for T-X. The USAF has already decided it doesn't want anymore F-16s, it's not going to suddenly decide "oh well we want them now".

The USAF should actually procure a twentieth what it ordered, about 60-70 airframes. The rest can be filled by T-50s or M-346s or some other super trainer aircraft. Given that the West is only going to be conducting COIN operations in the foreseeable future, this would be an exceptional fiscal decision. It gives the USAF a stealth capability without sacrificing current inventory of aircraft.

Strike radius compared to an F-15E with drop tanks, which is what F-35 is replacing. Don't forget that the F-35 has no drop tanks, which will limit its range when it is required to carry an external payload.

Do you know F-35's intended role? It doesn't sound like you do.

The USN is currently on track to order 36 F-35Cs, if any. It intends to use USMC squadrons on the super carriers (much like it has for several decades now, shocking!) instead of naval squadrons. It would prefer to not have to buy any F-35s and instead acquire large quantities of (comparatively) cheap F/A-18E/Fs, EA-18s, and X-47s.

"So low", hardly. It was a deliberate decision. It's called O-S and weapon system cost. F-35 isn't so great as to replace F-15 and F-16 on a 3:1 basis. It's 2:1 at best, and even then there's something to be said about actual inventory numbers when assuming attrition rates. The USN has taken the latter to heart, and given that it will be at the forefront in any Pacific war with the PRC it has chosen to not acquire F-35 in favour of larger numbers of legacy aircraft.

This is, again, a very sound decision. F-35's passive stealth will likely be significant compromised as future very low band radar systems are developed by the former Eastern Bloc, and in that case it will be no superior in RCS than Stuper Hornet and other current carrier aircraft.

F-15Es will be retired ten years later to be replaced by F-35s, unfortunately.

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/digi ... trucha.pdf

This is a very good article about the whole thing. While I disagree with the author's assertion that F-35 should be canceled (such a move would leave the West without a highly modern aircraft for some time as the current fleets age), there are still exceptional alternatives especially for replacing F-16 and T-38, which forms the bulk of the Western air forces.

T-50 would be cheaper than current late model F-16s, provide a similar capability in terms of range, reliability, and weapons payload, and more importantly could perform functions across a broad spectrum of operations. COIN, LIFT, and air superiority are all roles that T-50 can do quite well. Since the USAF is not interested in acquiring modernised F-16s, this is the best option for them if they wish to retain a sizable air fleet.

While an all F-35 air force is appealing from the standpoint of sheer capability, it comes at a significant cost (figuratively and literally) that will reduce the USAF's capability for global operations in the future. The most realistic outcome is that many of the aircraft will never see combat in high intensity operations and be used simply for police operations like Irak and Afghanistan, where something like T-X might perform equally well.

When the threat air defence is MANPADS and machine guns, it doesn't really matter if you're flying a $160m stealth jet or a $30m trainer.
Image
人◕ ‿‿ ◕人◕ ‿‿ ◕人◕ ‿‿ ◕人◕ ‿‿ ◕人◕ ‿‿ ◕人◕ ‿‿ ◕人◕ ‿‿ ◕人◕ ‿‿ ◕人◕ ‿‿ ◕人

User avatar
molnibalage
General
Posts: 6550
Joined: Thu 1 Aug 2013 22:54
Location: Hungary
Contact:

Re: The F35 saga is continuing on

Postby molnibalage » Sat 5 Jul 2014 11:50

NOT A POUND FOR AIR TO GROUND!!1!

Which as I have said was only a myth. Both F-15 and F-16 got better AG capability in '70s what any jet in US got except F-111F for good visibility conditions. F-111s had blind bombing capability and F-111F and A-6E TRAM had LGB capability in late '70s and '80s but they did not have such a flexible CCIP/CCRP mode what even F-16A had and F-15 also had similar bombing methods and with pods was able to use GBU-15 and GBU-8.

Here is rare video about F-15 which used for demonstration the bombing capability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1B-rGWPCPYw

User avatar
molnibalage
General
Posts: 6550
Joined: Thu 1 Aug 2013 22:54
Location: Hungary
Contact:

Re: The F35 saga is continuing on

Postby molnibalage » Sat 5 Jul 2014 12:01

is the most expensive aircraft ever produced

Or maybe not. In the early-mid '70s the flyaway cost of F-14s was about 20-22 M USD / airframe. Comparing to this price it is quite close the flyaway cost of F-35 if you calculate with inflation rate. This is amlost 100 M US/airframe. Ouch...

Part of the problem is that F-35 is going through production and design cycles simultaneously (whereas previous aircraft took twenty years to be designed and twenty to be produced, F-35 is going to be produced and designed for twenty years) in an attempt to lower costs. This results in numerous rebuilds of the early F-35s to correct serious design flaws (notably, the USAF and USN have both stripped their F-35s down to the landing gear to put in bulkheads or something) which only adds fuel to the fire (too soon?).

Additionally, the role F-35 was designed to operate as (interdiction against Soviet/WP ground forces) has been called obsolete, and reality seems to show that this role is no longer necessary and currently legacy aircraft like F-16 perform it adequately against modern non-state actors. Whether this will be necessary or not is questionable given the outcomes of Irak and Afghanistan.

Aham... Do you have sight in the future...? Just because in latest decades only COIN wars were typical for US and for many nations this does not mean that the future can mean only this. Considering this "vision" only COIN AC - Super Tucano and similar stuff - would be neccessary except air poilicy which requires a supersonic fighter...

There are approximately two revolutionary systems in F-35: Stealth and its sensors. One of these is considered unimportant or even obsolete, given the rapid advances in threat technology. The other is the primary contributor to the high unit cost of F-35.

Stealth never be obsolete because simply provides always much less detection range comparing to conventional AC... You know I have to say simply lack of funds leadted to current situtions. There are two types of air force in the world. The first type can buy stealth airframes and the rest developed an ideology why is "bad / obsolete / unnecessary" the stealth technology while they even tried to reduce the RCS of their AC as possible. It is quite funny isn't it. I think here about Rafale and France.

A potential future for F-35 is that the USAF procures ~80 airframes, the USN procures 0 in favour of X-47B and continued F/A-18E/Fs, and the USMC procures ~200 F-35Bs and -Cs to operate for the Navy. In this future, the F-35 will be used solely for its design role: interdiction of high value targets. Essentially F-117's role, but capable of self-defence and multirole capability.

No offense, but at this point I have to laugh.... You are just dreaming about what you wish to see but the reality is not based on your dreams...

There was an interesting article describing that one, as it also considered that LM's T-50 be used as a replacement for F-16 given its similar capability.

Similar does not mean equal...

User avatar
molnibalage
General
Posts: 6550
Joined: Thu 1 Aug 2013 22:54
Location: Hungary
Contact:

Re: The F35 saga is continuing on

Postby molnibalage » Sat 5 Jul 2014 12:02

:(
Last edited by OpusTheFowl on Sat 5 Jul 2014 18:00, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Off-Topic

User avatar
molnibalage
General
Posts: 6550
Joined: Thu 1 Aug 2013 22:54
Location: Hungary
Contact:

Re: The F35 saga is continuing on

Postby molnibalage » Sat 5 Jul 2014 12:04

Graphic wrote:Canada should buy F-15SE Silent Eagle. :D

I'm not as pessimistic about the F-35 as some, but I'm not a huge fan either. I'll always be biased towards the F-15.

Just quick question. Why most of people and article handle that Canada have to buy something new...? Why is not an option to extend the life spam and upgrading the F/A-18 Hornets and with a little bit what brings the future....? Hm...? Many features of latest 4++ gen. AC can be applied on airframe of Hornet...

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests