Crisis in Crimea

Falcrack
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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby Falcrack » Tue 11 Mar 2014 20:34

All the Russians who think that obviously Crimea should be part of Russia have a bit of a point, in that it was part of Russia before Khrushchev gave it to Ukraine in 1954. BUT, Russia agreed to let Ukraine keep Crimea in exchange for giving up the thousands of nukes Ukraine had after the fall of the Soviet Union. Those nukes in Ukraine could have legitimately been claimed by Ukraine, since it played its own significant part in Soviet times in producing them, it's not like Russia had some absolute claim on them. It was a fair trade, and now the agreement to honor the borders of Ukraine has been flagrantly violated by Russia. Ukraine is now talking about making their own nukes again as a result of this Russian invasion, and I don't blame them one bit.

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ElBubba
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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby ElBubba » Tue 11 Mar 2014 21:26

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Suriel
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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby Suriel » Tue 11 Mar 2014 22:32

LoneRifle wrote:
Suriel wrote:Slight off-topic but tomorrow we have 15th anniversary of Poland and our small army joining NATO.
http://www.tvn24.pl/wideo/z-anteny/mon-prezentuje-mozliwosci-polskich-sil-zbrojnych,1242089.html?playlist_id=17020

Polish commentary but some military hardware to watch.

Als,o Poland in BlueFor for Wargame: Red Dragon :D


No, this isn't just slightly off topic, its bizzarely off topic if you ask me.


Hardly off topic once you think about it. If I was in a Eastern European country I would be celebrating being in NATO too, it means I can't be bullied by Russia anymore. Ukraine gave up its nukes and the chance to join NATO on a now obviously empty promise from Russia not to attack it.


That's exactly my point. Thanks LoneRifle :)

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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby zervostyrd » Tue 11 Mar 2014 22:52

Falcrack wrote:All the Russians who think that obviously Crimea should be part of Russia have a bit of a point, in that it was part of Russia before Khrushchev gave it to Ukraine in 1954. BUT,.


It's a hell of a but.. Sweden could use the exact same arguments Russia are using, to annex Finland. Starting with Åland. Well except we have to have a slightly worse argument for claiming Finnish goverment is illegal (or rather we would look quite silly claiming that a govermental form which have been in existence for almost 100 years are illigit all of a sudden, but it's not like more odd stuff hasn't happened).

Other than that however... Join or DIEI mean else NOT!Sweden Airsofters invade Åland to "secure Swedish speakers, seing as how Finland have removed the mandatory Swedish classes" "Oh and they have (kinda) Neo Nazis in their parlament" "and seing as Finland was originally Swedish land... ya know".. :lol:

Maybe force Norway into Union too while we're at it... :P Oh and wez gonna need some Port cities in Estonia and Poland (I mean after all It's just a tiiiny little bit of Poland) :-)

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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby Kraxis » Tue 11 Mar 2014 23:36

zervostyrd wrote:
Falcrack wrote:All the Russians who think that obviously Crimea should be part of Russia have a bit of a point, in that it was part of Russia before Khrushchev gave it to Ukraine in 1954. BUT,.


It's a hell of a but.. Sweden could use the exact same arguments Russia are using, to annex Finland. Starting with Åland. Well except we have to have a slightly worse argument for claiming Finnish goverment is illegal (or rather we would look quite silly claiming that a govermental form which have been in existence for almost 100 years are illigit all of a sudden, but it's not like more odd stuff hasn't happened).

Other than that however... Join or DIEI mean else NOT!Sweden Airsofters invade Åland to "secure Swedish speakers, seing as how Finland have removed the mandatory Swedish classes" "Oh and they have (kinda) Neo Nazis in their parlament" "and seing as Finland was originally Swedish land... ya know".. :lol:

Maybe force Norway into Union too while we're at it... :P Oh and wez gonna need some Port cities in Estonia and Poland (I mean after all It's just a tiiiny little bit of Poland) :-)

Be prepared to see NOT!Danish PMC troops in Scania, Halland and Blekinge. The origin of the Danish tribe must be secure for the future prosperity of Denmark. And of course Sweden has a long history of persecution against Danes, just look at how they wiped out the Scanian language and traditions. It is long overdue to protect those! (I refuse to comment on the fact that both are now extinct. It is of no consequence to the validity of our claims) :lol:
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panzersaurkrautwefer
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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby panzersaurkrautwefer » Tue 11 Mar 2014 23:40

As I recall, some empty buckets in a basement constituted clear evidence of a rebel chemical weapons program in Syria to Team Russia. Don't go joking too hard now.


To be fair, you just described the Russian disaster response team for CBRN events, so perhaps they're getting the two confused.

Re: Events

I can see this strongly backfiring against Russia in terms of keeping NATO from expanding/his eurasian trade thing is looking more like a Greater Eurasian Co-Prosperity Sphere if you get the historical reference. Defensive alliances like NATO must look really appealing to people who don't have fond memories of 1920-1991 or so (or basically everyone who wasn't Russian in the USSR). Some sort of peaceful coexistence, or agreement with Russia is clearly untenable without exterior support.

On the other hand, I almost imagine some Russian minority populations in those countries are not going to be doing terribly well/displaying nationalist pride might result in trips down the stairs once or twice over.

Re: Finland vs Sweden

Do it. It'd be a welcome break from the normal international crisis.
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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby Kovlovsky » Wed 12 Mar 2014 00:33

panzersaurkrautwefer wrote:
As I recall, some empty buckets in a basement constituted clear evidence of a rebel chemical weapons program in Syria to Team Russia. Don't go joking too hard now.


To be fair, you just described the Russian disaster response team for CBRN events, so perhaps they're getting the two confused.

Re: Events

I can see this strongly backfiring against Russia in terms of keeping NATO from expanding/his eurasian trade thing is looking more like a Greater Eurasian Co-Prosperity Sphere if you get the historical reference. Defensive alliances like NATO must look really appealing to people who don't have fond memories of 1920-1991 or so (or basically everyone who wasn't Russian in the USSR). Some sort of peaceful coexistence, or agreement with Russia is clearly untenable without exterior support.

On the other hand, I almost imagine some Russian minority populations in those countries are not going to be doing terribly well/displaying nationalist pride might result in trips down the stairs once or twice over.

Re: Finland vs Sweden

Do it. It'd be a welcome break from the normal international crisis.


I agree with you, it will just throw a lot of eastern european countries in NATO and EU arms. The Co-Prosperity Sphere is perhaps a bit exagerated for the time being, because it was really a traditional empire with some type of puppet self-government that the Japanese built (occupied territories had even less "sovereignty" than Manchukuo. Perhaps it would evoluate toward a satellisation of their conquests, it's speculative as far as I know.

The problem isn't Crimea choosing independance or not. I'm always supportive of self-determination when it's democratically made (an honest and free referendum or near universal approval in the region). But if it's done under russian pressure and occupation, it's like Napoleon III asking the french people to agreed to his coup by referendum after it was done. It's done under duress and force and it has no legetimacy.
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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby Gopblin » Wed 12 Mar 2014 03:00

Kovlovsky wrote:The problem isn't Crimea choosing independance or not. I'm always supportive of self-determination when it's democratically made (an honest and free referendum or near universal approval in the region). But if it's done under russian pressure and occupation, it's like Napoleon III asking the french people to agreed to his coup by referendum after it was done. It's done under duress and force and it has no legetimacy.


Yup, but how else would you prevent Kiev rebels crushing the Crimean separatists before a "honest and free referendum" can be held?

They're coming down pretty hard on local protests in other regions - because non-EU-backing protests are not "democratic" apparently, and everyone participating are criminals and second-rate citizens.

We've all seen how well EU-guaranteed agreements work: Yanukovich was blindsided less than a day after telling police to leave the capital => EU immediately supported those that broke the agreement.

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Mitchverr
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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby Mitchverr » Wed 12 Mar 2014 03:08

How did the EU support them exactly, in your mind, im just curious.



Also, by having the UN go in, if they raised it as an issue within the UN, i suspect it would not have gotten a VETO, and that the Russian troops could go in for a temporary measure to keep the peace, but would be forced to withdraw when an independant peacekeeping force is amassed to take over the position, then a vote.

Or hell, say to NATO troops, or the EU "hey, can you guys take that part, we deal here, we bring peace, then allow full elections to be held under proper supervision and not block supervising agents into the region on silly bs grounds with the full support of the Ukrainian government(s) in order to deal with it all fairly with no bloodshed and not causing mass fear in multiple countries".


But you know, screw getting the international community in on something. lol.


Or lastly, stay the hell out of the country and wait to see what happens instead of bullrushing in and accusing the other side of making things worse when they see it as a hostile act.
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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby Kovlovsky » Wed 12 Mar 2014 03:14

Gopblin wrote:
Kovlovsky wrote:The problem isn't Crimea choosing independance or not. I'm always supportive of self-determination when it's democratically made (an honest and free referendum or near universal approval in the region). But if it's done under russian pressure and occupation, it's like Napoleon III asking the french people to agreed to his coup by referendum after it was done. It's done under duress and force and it has no legetimacy.


Yup, but how else would you prevent Kiev rebels crushing the Crimean separatists before a "honest and free referendum" can be held?

They're coming down pretty hard on local protests in other regions - because non-EU-backing protests are not "democratic" apparently, and everyone participating are criminals and second-rate citizens.

We've all seen how well EU-guaranteed agreements work: Yanukovich was blindsided less than a day after telling police to leave the capital => EU immediately supported those that broke the agreement.

Best wishes,
Daniel


If Kiev would have sent the tanks to crush the separatists after a lawful referendum and was starting to randomly shoot people in the streets, I'm pretty sure you would have get a pretty much big media coverage of that and the EU governments would be reluctantly pushed by their population into sending a strong message to the Ukraine gov or face immediate criticism and discreditation. Perhaps it's because I'm in Quebec, but even our mainstream media has a tradition of being pretty independent of the federal governement external policies. Steven Harper (conservative prime minister of Canada), by example, is very often strongly criticised on air by specialists being interviewed at Radio Canada.
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