Crisis in Crimea

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Mitchverr
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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby Mitchverr » Wed 12 Mar 2014 03:19

Kovlovsky wrote:If Kiev would have sent the tanks to crush the separatists after a lawful referendum and was starting to randomly shoot people in the streets, I'm pretty sure you would have get a pretty much big media coverage of that and the EU governments would be reluctantly pushed by their population into sending a strong message to the Ukraine gov or face immediate criticism and discreditation. Perhaps it's because I'm in Quebec, but even our mainstream media has a tradition of being pretty independent of the federal governement external policies. Steven Harper (conservative prime minister of Canada), by example, is very often strongly criticised on air by specialists being interviewed at Radio Canada.


British media will take any nook they can to attack the EU, litterally, any little thing they can.

So if it is "that bad" i suspect something would get through on at least 1 of the british media outlets. Especially if the EU was supporting the killing of people :lol:

I mean cmon, the EU couldnt agree its way down a 1 way street.


Not to mention, a massive chunk of the EU doesnt like the EU, i doubt it would risk serious destabalising of itself considering the numbers that want to debate its existance as a political body.
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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby Gopblin » Wed 12 Mar 2014 04:24

Mitchverr wrote:How did the EU support them exactly, in your mind, im just curious.


First and foremost, by instantly recognizing a government that came to power in an armed coup supported by a few thousand extremist fighters (plus maybe 50k onlookers) as the one and only legal representative of all 45 million Ukrainian people.

Then we can talk about huge media bias, economic aid, diplomatic support, etc. Basically it's easier to list the one way they did not support the rebels = by direct military action.

Also, by having the UN go in, if they raised it as an issue within the UN, i suspect it would not have gotten a VETO, and that the Russian troops could go in for a temporary measure to keep the peace, but would be forced to withdraw when an independant peacekeeping force is amassed to take over the position, then a vote.


Eh? UN doesn't even recognize Crimea. Or any other splitter states, other than Muslim terrorists in Bosnia.

Or hell, say to NATO troops, or the EU "hey, can you guys take that part, we deal here, we bring peace, then allow full elections to be held under proper supervision and not block supervising agents into the region on silly bs grounds with the full support of the Ukrainian government(s) in order to deal with it all fairly with no bloodshed and not causing mass fear in multiple countries".

But you know, screw getting the international community in on something. lol.


When the "international community" (AKA US, EU, and assorted flunkies) seems to be wholly on the side of your enemy, one needs to be completely delusional to trust them.

Or lastly, stay the hell out of the country and wait to see what happens instead of bullrushing in and accusing the other side of making things worse when they see it as a hostile act.


THAT I can sorta agree with. It woulda probably been more beneficial for Putin diplomatically to wait until bodies start piling up, then go in. Guess he's either too bold, or suddenly sentimental.

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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby DoktorvonWer » Wed 12 Mar 2014 04:25

Gopblin wrote:When the "international community" (AKA US, EU, and assorted flunkies) seems to be wholly on the side of your enemy, one needs to be completely delusional to trust them.


Here's the thing, right?

You view anyone in Ukraine who'd democratically wish to join the EU and not stick close to Russia as your 'ENEMY'.
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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby Gopblin » Wed 12 Mar 2014 04:33

Kovlovsky wrote:If Kiev would have sent the tanks to crush the separatists after a lawful referendum and was starting to randomly shoot people in the streets, I'm pretty sure you would have get a pretty much big media coverage of that and the EU governments would be reluctantly pushed by their population into sending a strong message to the Ukraine gov or face immediate criticism and discreditation. Perhaps it's because I'm in Quebec, but even our mainstream media has a tradition of being pretty independent of the federal governement external policies. Steven Harper (conservative prime minister of Canada), by example, is very often strongly criticised on air by specialists being interviewed at Radio Canada.


You seriously believe that first part? Don't you remember South Ossetia, where Georgia did just what you described, and were whole-heatedly supported by the West?

Sure, the media reversed its stance some time after the conflict, but entirely too late to make any difference - if not for Russia, Ossetians would be history weeks before anyone took any action. Not to mention none was taken anyway.

Oh, and the population forgot all about it before the media reluctantly mumbled that the Georgians were indeed the aggressors.

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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby Gopblin » Wed 12 Mar 2014 04:34

DoktorvonWer wrote:
Gopblin wrote:When the "international community" (AKA US, EU, and assorted flunkies) seems to be wholly on the side of your enemy, one needs to be completely delusional to trust them.


Here's the thing, right?

You view anyone in Ukraine who'd democratically wish to join the EU and not stick close to Russia as your 'ENEMY'.


I was obviously speaking from the viewpoint of Crimean population, not my own.

I personally don't need to actually ponder the merits of EU military occupation or taking the referendum issue to the UN, because I am not a Crimean resident.

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Mitchverr
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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby Mitchverr » Wed 12 Mar 2014 05:07

First and foremost, by instantly recognizing a government that came to power in an armed coup supported by a few thousand extremist fighters (plus maybe 50k onlookers) as the one and only legal representative of all 45 million Ukrainian people.

Then we can talk about huge media bias, economic aid, diplomatic support, etc. Basically it's easier to list the one way they did not support the rebels = by direct military action.


You know, i find it hard to understand how "stopping a country collapsing" is "being one sided".

Not to mention ofcourse, didnt the new government say it would hold elections as soon as it was able to keep the region stable?

Eh? UN doesn't even recognize Crimea. Or any other splitter states, other than Muslim terrorists in Bosnia.


Why would it recognise a region for independance when it hasnt gone into a full scale demand for this? As for the comment of muslims, well, whatever, but considering they also wish to accept places like the Falklands as independant in the past, well, its possible they could, and considering the top 5 in the UN, im sure something could be figured out if done in a fair way.

When the "international community" (AKA US, EU, and assorted flunkies) seems to be wholly on the side of your enemy, one needs to be completely delusional to trust them.


Enemy is a strong word. I would think that the EU isnt the enemy of a great many in the Crimea, EG the Tatars and those who dont want to join russia again.

THAT I can sorta agree with. It woulda probably been more beneficial for Putin diplomatically to wait until bodies start piling up, then go in. Guess he's either too bold, or suddenly sentimental.


Wait for bodies, lets not forget how Putin protected a government that was making bodies in the past few years ofcourse, or how well, lets see, were bodies about to pile up? I mean, dont get me wrong Ukraine went into a big issue, but i dont think there was about to be mass killings of people in the Crimea to the scale people suggest....


You seriously believe that first part? Don't you remember South Ossetia, where Georgia did just what you described, and were whole-heatedly supported by the West?


Last i checked the UK and many others didnt support it actually overall and were in fact on the Russians side for that 1 and refused to comment till facts were known other then reporting that russians had basically invaded the region which is factual.

I was obviously speaking from the viewpoint of Crimean population, not my own.


You assume that is what all crimeans think, i suspect many dont and the footage coming out and the information is fairly suspect as to how well the minority are being looked after.

I personally don't need to actually ponder the merits of EU military occupation or taking the referendum issue to the UN, because I am not a Crimean resident.


EU military occupation.... :lol: good one.
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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby Kovlovsky » Wed 12 Mar 2014 08:21

Gopblin wrote:
Kovlovsky wrote:If Kiev would have sent the tanks to crush the separatists after a lawful referendum and was starting to randomly shoot people in the streets, I'm pretty sure you would have get a pretty much big media coverage of that and the EU governments would be reluctantly pushed by their population into sending a strong message to the Ukraine gov or face immediate criticism and discreditation. Perhaps it's because I'm in Quebec, but even our mainstream media has a tradition of being pretty independent of the federal governement external policies. Steven Harper (conservative prime minister of Canada), by example, is very often strongly criticised on air by specialists being interviewed at Radio Canada.


You seriously believe that first part? Don't you remember South Ossetia, where Georgia did just what you described, and were whole-heatedly supported by the West?

Sure, the media reversed its stance some time after the conflict, but entirely too late to make any difference - if not for Russia, Ossetians would be history weeks before anyone took any action. Not to mention none was taken anyway.

Oh, and the population forgot all about it before the media reluctantly mumbled that the Georgians were indeed the aggressors.

Best wishes,
Daniel.


The immediate reaction was of support of Georgia, but when the OCDE and UN fact finding missions started to give proofs that Georgia indeed started the war and was going full retard, the backlash against Georgia was pretty much severe. I remember the journalists were all saying : What the f*** Georgia think they can achieve by attacking a great power's peace keepers? I remember that this realisation was made during the crisis, around the time Russia was pushing hard in the georgian interior. The ethnic cleansings and deliberate bombardment of civilians by the georgian artillery was covered and the ossetian militia revenge wave too. The russian soldiers were described as not participating in this and only concentrated on the war.
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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby Simms » Wed 12 Mar 2014 09:11

DoktorvonWer wrote:You view anyone in Ukraine who'd democratically wish to join the EU and not stick close to Russia as your 'ENEMY'.

I'd call such judgement rather naive.
Both countries' population initially wasn't much against each other and probably isn't even now. Nearly all of the folks I know personally held quite good opinion of our neighbors to the West, the only problem was (and is now) the Ukrainian government. Since 2004 it has taken a lot of steps trying to discredit Russia in the eyes of its own population, carelessly mangling with such aspects as language, history, monuments and memorials. All of this formed a great deal of negative attitude towards them in Russia, similar to what has happened in the Baltic states.

I now spend some time every morning looking through Ukrainian press, TV and online news headlines only to see the bull on the scale 999x much more aggressive and absurd than I happen to see on Russian federal media sources.
There are no-kidding headlines like
"Russia declared state of war with Ukraine"
"Russian armor is seen crossing Eastern border"
"USA representatives agree to provide military aid against Crimean separatists"
"Military occupation in the Crimea costs Russia 55 billion a day. It'll be bankrupt in a week"
Tell me what would you think if these were your only sources of daily information?
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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby DeuZerre » Wed 12 Mar 2014 09:14

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdBeGwXgoqI

Yeah, Vice news is gonna be a bit quiet, for a while, in Crimea.
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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby frostypooky » Wed 12 Mar 2014 09:40

DeuZerre wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdBeGwXgoqI

Yeah, Vice news is gonna be a bit quiet, for a while, in Crimea.


I'm confused, why hasn't the ethnic Russian military officer been purged by the neo Nazi fascists? What is this "I fight the enemies of the state of Ukraine, not specific ethnicities" propaganda he is spewing when we have been told the purpose of the revolution was so CIA and EU could purge Russians from Ukraine? And why do the noble Berkut officers threaten the journalists so openly when we are told that they were performing honorably during the Kiev protests and its all the rioters fault?

Smartassery aside, hats off to Simon and crew for daring to go where the rest of the media won't. I certainly wouldn't test my luck against a bunch of Russian airsofters, racist cossacks, and inordinately aggressive Berkut agents.
Last edited by frostypooky on Wed 12 Mar 2014 14:37, edited 1 time in total.

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