Crisis in Crimea

Kovlovsky
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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby Kovlovsky » Wed 12 Mar 2014 19:33

LoneRifle wrote:
Killertomato wrote:
And if you are against Crimean independence, where were you 1999 when Kosovo was split off illegally? And in recent history: Iraq? Libya? Grenada (US invaded the country and installed a new government in order to protect their citizens there - in reality they were afraid of the english speaking marxist government).


Implying any of those are similar to what's happening in Crimea now.


There has never been an attempted genocide of the folks in Crimea.


About the case of Kosovo, an unilateral declaration of independance isn't illegal by itself, but the legetimacy of it can be argued. I'm more in favour of having a referendum before doing that to show if the independance option is popular and therefore legitimate or that it's not. But an unilateral declaration is perfectly legal internationally, but it risks to not be widely recognised if legitimacy is disputed among other factors.
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Mitchverr
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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby Mitchverr » Wed 12 Mar 2014 19:35

LoneRifle wrote:There has never been an attempted genocide of the folks in Crimea.


Genocide, no, mass deportation under the sign of the X, yes.
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Iris
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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby Iris » Wed 12 Mar 2014 20:28

You mean Russia has a history of genocide and mass exoduses?

I mean only an estimated 62 million over the entire course of the Soviet Union...7 million of which are estimated as being Ukrainian and starved to death.

Surely those mass deportations...with some having a claimed 50% death toll of the transportees. (Half of the children don't die on American school-buses, but half the Chechens died on Russian trains.)

No wonder Russia still has so many issues, they pissed off about everybody in their own borders for the past 100 years;

want a good example? A Russian colonel ordered 700 Chechen's be locked into a barn and burned to death; he was promised a medal for it by his commanding officer.

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guynumber7
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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby guynumber7 » Wed 12 Mar 2014 20:32

Sorry but i dont think the 62 million number is legitimate. Its more like ~15-20.

Not that im trying to whitewash it though.
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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby Gopblin » Wed 12 Mar 2014 20:34

DeuZerre wrote:
Gopblin wrote:It did schedule elections in a couple months, but
a) They can hardly be called fair when streets are patrolled by armed far-right fighters instead of police - same argument as in Crimea

Yeah, right. Where are they? Give e proof of that, seriously. I'm yet to se those far right militia taking police actions. :?


Someone posted a BBC article on the subject in this very thread.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26398112

And such.
This is an interesting read from an earlier time, as well:
http://reporter.vesti.ua/41419-shag-vpravo

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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby zervostyrd » Wed 12 Mar 2014 20:38

Kraxis wrote:Be prepared to see NOT!Danish PMC troops in Scania, Halland and Blekinge. The origin of the Danish tribe must be secure for the future prosperity of Denmark. And of course Sweden has a long history of persecution against Danes, just look at how they wiped out the Scanian language and traditions. It is long overdue to protect those! (I refuse to comment on the fact that both are now extinct. It is of no consequence to the validity of our claims) :lol:


Sure keep it. I don't think many would mind. On a funny note, I read somwhere that neo-nazis and Swedish nationalists have their strongest support in Scania, wierd indeed :roll: ..

And don't forget that without the backing of the West, none of this anarchy would have been possible. Remember the tax Maidan of 2010? ... No one else does either. And it was roughly the same size as the current one, just wasn't pro-EU so wasn't hyped up.


Except from Media and media coverage, please present proof. As far as media and media coverage goes, Russia have their fair share of media tools for propaganda purposes too, hence one could argue that one should cancel out the other, unless one side fails...

The illegitimate parliament passed laws restricting presidential powers, essentially transferring power to itself - and the parliament isn't up for reelection for another 2.5 years I think. Especially cute considering the large number of MPs that are currently on the run, absent, or simply nowhere to be found.


Well then, maybe Russia should utilize diplomatic means to hold elections for parliament too, instead of "rescue Russian speakers" in crimea first thing they do... OR at the very least utilize diplomatic means to hold elections for parliament in conjuction with presedency even though they have already walked in on crimea. Instead of siting like a 5 year old child with their arms crossed and saying "NO I only listen to that dude, pointing to yanukovic..."

And one last note, The ukrainians living in crimea or those who have close relatives in the Ukrainian army, or those who disagree with the current events can be harrased? I assume they aren't as important as the "Russian speaking majority who had been in serious trouble had Russia not acted" (note the quotations)..

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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby Gopblin » Wed 12 Mar 2014 20:42

Iris wrote:You mean Russia has a history of genocide and mass exoduses?

I mean only an estimated 62 million over the entire course of the Soviet Union...7 million of which are estimated as being Ukrainian and starved to death.


Noope. Somewhat under 1 million received the death penalty, maybe 10-20 million repressed depending on how you count.

Actual famine victims are estimated at 3 million at most, and that's counting the drop in birthrates (i.e. children that never lived, but woulda been born if not for bad weather, worldwide economic crisis, and poor Soviet policies). By that measure, the independent Ukrainian leadership "caused" about 12 million deaths - the population of Ukraine increased by 6 million in the last 20 years of USSR, and decreased by 6 million in the 20 years of independence.

NOT saying Stalin's repressions were justified, but please fact-check your estimates instead of using random works of fiction as sources.

Surely those mass deportations...with some having a claimed 50% death toll of the transportees. (Half of the children don't die on American school-buses, but half the Chechens died on Russian trains.)

No wonder Russia still has so many issues, they pissed off about everybody in their own borders for the past 100 years;


The only times deportations/GULAGs had a high death toll was during WWII starvation years, so do we blame Stalin or Hitler for those deaths?

want a good example? A Russian colonel ordered 700 Chechen's be locked into a barn and burned to death; he was promised a medal for it by his commanding officer.


Yeahhh.. That's probably complete fiction, unless we're talking 18th century or smth.

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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby Crotou » Wed 12 Mar 2014 21:06

Gopblin wrote:
Someone posted a BBC article on the subject in this very thread.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26398112


"Small number" + no information stating the police isn't doing its job + UN observers are allowed in Kiev.

Meanwhile in Crimea, you can see complete regiments of russian airsofters and militias using their guns against UN observers.
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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby Radsoc » Wed 12 Mar 2014 23:27

Well, some guy in Washington used some official soviet demographics to draw the conclusion that "millions had been killed", because the population wasn't as high as it was "supposed to be".

By the same logics we can find that all western industrialized countries have mass murdered their own populations, because families contain less children. Not 6-10 as was the case pre-industrialization. With better health care and better standards of living in general, the risk for losing children is lower and thus fewer children are born. Fewer births is what to be expected for the USSR in that period, as with all countries in the same situation, because of industrialization.

The same official statistics show at most a couple of million casualties due to famine - due to kulak scorched earth tactics in response to democratization/collectivization. In the early USSR much land was privately owned. After the revolution land was given away to those who plowed it. However, after a couple of years land accumulated into the hands of a few. It's a natural mechanism. It's enough that some peasant gets sick or otherwise unlucky so that he is forced to sell his land for some immediate money. The kulaks emerged as a class with leverage on the rest of society.

As long as the population is increasing, but perhaps less and less, things should be ok. And the population of the USSR increased dramatically during its existence. Now, the republics struggle with both economy and their population numbers. Take a look at EU countries like Latvia even. No "mass murder", but surely people live worse and in Russia not as long as before. Taking away social security, healtchare and education is a type of violence. And for that you, liberals, are responsible.


And what about the far right violence in Ukraine?

This is how godless opposition is treated (in areas where they haven't banned the opposition parties - Russian TV is already banned)

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“Comrades, I’m Rostislav Stepanovich Vasilko, First Secretary of the KPU Gorkom in Lvov; the Banderovtsy beat me up badly in Kiev. They stalk my mom; they put out death threats against my children. They threatened to kill my common-law wife and me. Help me to find political asylum in another country. On 22 February, from 11.00 to 23.00, Euromaidan ruffians tortured me in Mariinsky Park; they drove needles under my fingernails and beat me with clubs and fists. They punctured my right lung; they broke three ribs, my nasal septum, and a facial cyst. They cracked my skull and I have a second-degree concussion. I got bruises all over me. Tomorrow, the doctors will do a spinal tap. I’m in the deep doo-doo! The Banderovtsy cleaned me out! They took my documents, my money, and my cross on a gold chain”

Here they loot opposition party HQs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrUMKDkarvg


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Peaceful demonstrators beat an elderly woman that walks to lay flowers at Lenin.

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"Little green men" on Maidan. Your friend Bandera in the background.

Your own mouthpiece, BBC News, interviews nazis who have looted the Communist Party HQ:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kb8PsB04kk

How can you have free elections and an election campaign when fascists patrol the streets, make people vote at gun point, when opposition HQs are occupied, parties and TV-channels banned?

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The best democracy money can buy.


The problem with Stalin was that he was too kind. In reality it was one of the most properous and successful eras in history. Growth has never been that high before or after. They literally started in the mud and ended in space. Socialism, and the planned rational economy, was and is a major threat to the past and current rulers, which is why they have to demonize and combat it by all means. It has nothing to do with "freedom" or "democracy" (of which there is none).
Last edited by Radsoc on Wed 12 Mar 2014 23:37, edited 2 times in total.
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Crotou
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Re: Crisis in Crimea

Postby Crotou » Wed 12 Mar 2014 23:32

The difference is UN observers are allowed in Kiev but not in Crimea. Huge difference.
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