Islamic State/Coalition Bombing Mega Thread

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praslovan
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Re: Iraq, send in the tanks?

Postby praslovan » Fri 13 Jun 2014 20:53

It is simple. For the problem they have right now. What do they need to solve it? Organised people with guns, that would together with government forces prevent insurgents to take over.

It will cost you an arm and a leg anyway.
You would have to pay money to PMC directly while if you ask US for help you will have to buy 100 F16 from them.
With the difference that PMC will probably be more flexible around the cost while US will say tough luck and simply not show up if you don't want to buy exactly 100 F16 from them as they said you need to. Which would in terms of long time maintenance and pilot training cost 100x the PMC would. Unless you would leave your "investment" to rot in some hangar.

Not to mention PMC will pack and leave depending on the contract while US army would leave when they will feel like it.

*note that US army here is simply because it was first on my mind... it can be Frenc army or Grman or whichever for all I care.

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Re: Iraq, send in the tanks?

Postby RangerPL » Fri 13 Jun 2014 20:56

Rorschach wrote:PMC train Iraqi Army=Good idea

PMC take on the role of Iraqi Army=Bad idea

You follow?

The difference is that the Iraqi army is inherently crap because they are unreliable. Some sympathize with the terrorists, others are simply conscripts who just want to stay out of harm's way and go home. No matter how much you train them, they're still going to be unmotivated and unreliable. And they don't get paid much either.

With PMCs, you're spending a ton of money but at least you're getting people who will get the job done.
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Re: Iraq, send in the tanks?

Postby praslovan » Fri 13 Jun 2014 20:58

Rorschach wrote:PMC train Iraqi Army=Good idea

PMC take on the role of Iraqi Army=Bad idea

You follow?


Have you followed the part on page 9 at all? Read it then try with snappy comebacks.

To put it down in your terms.

Iraqi Army = kaput = good bye democracy that was installed by US at gun point

Do you follow?
Last edited by praslovan on Fri 13 Jun 2014 21:02, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Iraq, send in the tanks?

Postby AlmightyTallest » Fri 13 Jun 2014 21:00

Wow....

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27831508

18:26: The idea of US-Iranian co-operation over the Iraq crisis "is being discussed internally among the Tehran leadership", a senior Iranian official told Reuters, speaking on condition of anonymity. "We can work with Americans to end the insurgency in the Middle East."

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Rorschach
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Re: Iraq, send in the tanks?

Postby Rorschach » Fri 13 Jun 2014 21:05

AlmightyTallest wrote:Wow....

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27831508

18:26: The idea of US-Iranian co-operation over the Iraq crisis "is being discussed internally among the Tehran leadership", a senior Iranian official told Reuters, speaking on condition of anonymity. "We can work with Americans to end the insurgency in the Middle East."



Weirdest things bring nations together together.
A brilliant plan from the dirtiest euro-hippie: get US players to pay me for a game that I then show them how much their military sucks so I can feel better about being a communist.

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Re: Iraq, send in the tanks?

Postby AlmightyTallest » Fri 13 Jun 2014 21:07

Yea, really.

Could not have imagined that just a few days ago.

ikalugin
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Re: Iraq, send in the tanks?

Postby ikalugin » Fri 13 Jun 2014 21:08

I think that someone has the wrong impression that Iraqi army is either western model at the moment or could get there soon.

Or more importantly that one could use western army/police to keep peace in Iraq.

The issue is that you can't, you need an eastern army to oppress and kill the enemy and thus achieve stability. Only on such basis an evolution to a state where you could apply western standards could happen.
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Rorschach
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Re: Iraq, send in the tanks?

Postby Rorschach » Fri 13 Jun 2014 21:09

praslovan wrote:
Rorschach wrote:PMC train Iraqi Army=Good idea

PMC take on the role of Iraqi Army=Bad idea

You follow?


Have you followed the part on page 9 at all? Read it then try with snappy comebacks.

To put it down in your terms.

Iraqi Army = kaput = good bye democracy that was installed by US at gun point

Do you follow?


You mocked my idea that the Iraqi army should act like an army, because in order to do that, you need external training, and if you have PMCs training the army, they might as well fight the insurgents as well. I disagree, and think that the line is crossed when PMCs take over the army's role, as you as suggesting that they do in Iraq atm.

If the Iraqi army is incapable, then they should not be propped up by PMCs, but rather by other nations armies, such as the USA, or Iran.



The difference is that the Iraqi army is inherently crap because they are unreliable. Some sympathize with the terrorists, others are simply conscripts who just want to stay out of harm's way and go home. No matter how much you train them, they're still going to be unmotivated and unreliable. And they don't get paid much either.


I agree, and that is why the Iraqi army needs training and external help in order to shape up, which PMCs could provide.
A brilliant plan from the dirtiest euro-hippie: get US players to pay me for a game that I then show them how much their military sucks so I can feel better about being a communist.

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Re: Iraq, send in the tanks?

Postby TheMarraMan » Fri 13 Jun 2014 21:12

Rorschach wrote:
AlmightyTallest wrote:Wow....

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27831508

18:26: The idea of US-Iranian co-operation over the Iraq crisis "is being discussed internally among the Tehran leadership", a senior Iranian official told Reuters, speaking on condition of anonymity. "We can work with Americans to end the insurgency in the Middle East."



Weirdest things bring nations together together.


US and Iran have worked together before on this matter. And they should work together more. Forget Israel and Saudi Arabia. We should legitimately form some sort of friendship with Iran.

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Re: Iraq, send in the tanks?

Postby ikalugin » Fri 13 Jun 2014 21:18

You mocked my idea that the Iraqi army should act like an army, because in order to do that, you need external training

And he was right to do so, as:
- Western type army can't deal with the issue.
- you can't transform Iraqi army into an actual Army not to mention a Western one in time.

- local militias and poorly trained armed forces are bad, ideally you need ruthless Republican Guard, but PMC would do to begin with (with transformation into the above mentioned Republican Guard), as those would actually complete assigned missions.
- afore mentioned PMC/RG is better than local militias/ethnically (religiously) biased armed forces (which would have to be so to actually execute their duties against the insurgents) ethnic cleansing wise as the society would hate them, not each other.
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