Thought Experiment: How the USSR could have survived

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hansbroger
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Re: Thought Experiment: How the USSR could have survived

Postby hansbroger » Sun 4 Jan 2015 19:53

Part 1.

Rising oil prices severely slow down the US economy, Reagan's expensive and extravagant defense spending becomes unpopular, citizens care less about stealth and star wars as American jobs are increasingly lost to Asia and western Europe. Reagan loses the 1984 presidential election and his successor takes the victory to signify a resounding verdict of approval for his party's platform of rapproachment with the USSR and disarmament.

Reagans successor quickly gives assurances to the USSR during an unprecedented state visit to Moscow and soon after arms limitation treaties begin to take shape. Meanwhile in secret talks it is agreed without consulting its economic competitors in western Europe that the US will release certain restrictions on the sale and transference of advanced technology and machinery to the USSR like highly precise computer guided milling machines and other innovations that would revolutionize the Russian oil industry after the fall. In return the faltering US manufacturing economy and nascent high tech industry reap the rewards of Soviet oil cash as the USSR uses higher revenues to purchase advanced US tech and machinery/machine tools in their desperate attempt to modernize the soviet economy.

Soviet efforts to regear their economy towards the production of consumer goods are further assisted by the lessening of tensions on their western border as increasing reluctance of NATO countries to invest in what they increasingly consider a hegemonic conflict between the US leads to friction in the alliance and ultimately a revolt in congress over the expense of maintaining american troops in western Europe, resulting in the unilateral withdrawal of US ground forces in Europe. Contrary to naysayers the Soviets also take the opportunity to vastly draw down their forces in western Europe, although still leaving a presence to shore up client regimes in eastern Europe.

Part 2 and the trans Eurasian railway to come soon!
Projectnordic in game! will likely see you on pact/red dragons/french!
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Re: Thought Experiment: How the USSR could have survived

Postby frostypooky » Sun 4 Jan 2015 19:59

The USSR abandons Europe and focuses on North Korea. Unfortunately, the the USSR comes to its twilight hours when the French near-singlehandedly defeat the combined might of the Red Army, People's Liberation Army, and Korean People's Army.

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Re: Thought Experiment: How the USSR could have survived

Postby LoneRifle » Sun 4 Jan 2015 20:08

Why did the Baltics boycott it I wonder.....

Oh wait probably had something to do with the 3 states declaring themselves Independent and fighting off attempted Soviet coups. My mistake.

And Ukraine voted for it yes...... but 90% voted for Independence how many months later?! Seems rather sketchy and odd to me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#Independence
Now it looks like a formality. Ukraine had already gained defacto Independence and were rejecting Soviet laws in their country (similarly to the Baltics), but still paid lip service to the supposed Soviet rule by having a "referendum".

Nice try Ruskies.
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jmpveg22
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Re: Thought Experiment: How the USSR could have survived

Postby jmpveg22 » Sun 4 Jan 2015 20:13

LoneRifle wrote:Why did the Baltics boycott it I wonder.....

Oh wait probably had something to do with the 3 states declaring themselves Independent and fighting off attempted Soviet coups. My mistake.

And Ukraine voted for it yes...... but 90% voted for Independence how many months later?! Seems rather sketchy and odd to me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#Independence
Now it looks like a formality. Ukraine had already gained defacto Independence and were rejecting Soviet laws in their country (similarly to the Baltics), but still paid lip service to the supposed Soviet rule by having a "referendum".

Nice try Ruskies.


The August coup kinda threw things into a state of flux and chaos... in fact it single handedly convinced many the jig was up. Prior to the coup however most of the republics were firmly intent on maintaining a reformed USSR.

You may wanna do some history before you make inflammatory remarks ;)

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Re: Thought Experiment: How the USSR could have survived

Postby jmpveg22 » Sun 4 Jan 2015 20:18

frostypooky wrote:The USSR abandons Europe and focuses on North Korea. Unfortunately, the the USSR comes to its twilight hours when the French near-singlehandedly defeat the combined might of the Red Army, People's Liberation Army, and Korean People's Army.



lolz... :roll:

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Yakhont
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Re: Thought Experiment: How the USSR could have survived

Postby Yakhont » Sun 4 Jan 2015 20:25

The USSR had major problems and it would have taken enormous political will to reform it. There were good stuff going for it, but it was out weighted by the bad.

As a wise, manly president once said, those who don't want the USSR back have no heart, those who want it back have no brain.

Today's Russia as a whole has better living conditions and consumer products with more efficient use of resources.

Russians are free to visit other countries and understand their people, which is one of the best ingredients for peace.

Base disagreements about ideology was already a big stumbling block for reform, only an intellectual giant on the height of Lenin would be able to convince the Party to adopt free market characteristics for reform like Deng Siao Peng. Gorbachev was not such a man and lacked the strength and will to hold the union together while reforming it.
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Re: Thought Experiment: How the USSR could have survived

Postby icehawk308 » Sun 4 Jan 2015 20:43

Also to consider:

Soviet Union referendum, 1991

A referendum on the future of the Soviet Union was held on 17 March 1991. The question put to voters was

Do you consider necessary the preservation of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics as a renewed federation of equal sovereign republics in which the rights and freedom of an individual of any nationality will be fully guaranteed?

In Kazakhstan the wording of the referendum was changed by substituting "equal sovereign states" for "equal sovereign republics."

Although the vote was boycotted by the authorities in Armenia, Estonia, Georgia (though not the breakaway province of Abkhazia, where the result was over 98% in favour, and in South Ossetia), Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova (though not Transnistria or Gagauzia), turnout was 80% across the USSR. The referendums question was approved by nearly 70% of voters in all nine other republics that took part. It was the first, and only, referendum in the history of the Soviet Union, which was dissolved on 26 December 1991.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Uni ... ndum,_1991

So technically most of the union voted to stay as the CCCP. The Baltics and southern republics didnt vote and pressed on with separation. :|

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Re: Thought Experiment: How the USSR could have survived

Postby LoneRifle » Sun 4 Jan 2015 20:46

jmpveg22 wrote:The August coup kinda threw things into a state of flux and chaos... in fact it single handedly convinced many the jig was up. Prior to the coup however most of the republics were firmly intent on maintaining a reformed USSR.

You may wanna do some history before you make inflammatory remarks ;)


First we all get to see give some drivel about how the "Free referendum" was an example of glorious democratic representation in Russia. Then I pointed out it was straight up boycotted in the Baltics and the Ukrainians obviously didn't give a shit about it if they simply voted to leave with a 90% majority vote a few months later, and there is a shocking change in tune to "however most of them....." No just no.

The coup showed the minorities and republics that the Soviet Union would no longer butcher them if they voted to leave the USSR. So they left de jure instead of just de facto. They had no intention of obeying Communists anymore anyhow, and the coup demonstrated to everyone that the USSR had lost it's teeth when it came to putting down dissent. When Russia tried to flex it's muscle and prevent anymore bleed off in Chechnya, it caused a civil war. A massive civil war would have almost certainly happened in the Ukraine if Gorby or anyone else went hardline on the Ukrainians or the Baltics for leaving the country during 1990. So yes, once the threat of destruction went away, all the minorities and locals left Union.

Once you let a people taste freedom, you can't ever take that away from them.

You might want to educate yourself on actual historical events instead of reading the Russian history of the world by PRAVDA mate ;)
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Mikeboy
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Re: Thought Experiment: How the USSR could have survived

Postby Mikeboy » Sun 4 Jan 2015 20:57

icehawk308 wrote:Also to consider:

Soviet Union referendum, 1991


As a criticism the question phrasing is highly loaded. Not enough to change the outcome I'd bet, but enough to be an issue.

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Re: Thought Experiment: How the USSR could have survived

Postby jmpveg22 » Sun 4 Jan 2015 20:58

LoneRifle wrote:
jmpveg22 wrote:The August coup kinda threw things into a state of flux and chaos... in fact it single handedly convinced many the jig was up. Prior to the coup however most of the republics were firmly intent on maintaining a reformed USSR.

You may wanna do some history before you make inflammatory remarks ;)


First we all get to see give some drivel about how the "Free referendum" was an example of glorious democratic representation in Russia. Then I pointed out it was straight up boycotted in the Baltics and the Ukrainians obviously didn't give a shit about it if they simply voted to leave with a 90% majority vote a few months later, and there is a shocking change in tune to "however most of them....." No just no.

The coup showed the minorities and republics that the Soviet Union would no longer butcher them if they voted to leave the USSR. So they left de jure instead of just de facto. They had no intention of obeying Communists anymore anyhow, and the coup demonstrated to everyone that the USSR had lost it's teeth when it came to putting down dissent. When Russia tried to flex it's muscle and prevent anymore bleed off in Chechnya, it caused a civil war. A massive civil war would have almost certainly happened in the Ukraine if Gorby or anyone else went hardline on the Ukrainians or the Baltics for leaving the country during 1990. So yes, once the threat of destruction went away, all the minorities and locals left Union.

Once you let a people taste freedom, you can't ever take that away from them.

You might want to educate yourself on actual historical events instead of reading the Russian history of the world by PRAVDA mate ;)


Interesting in being if you took the time to actually read rather than just react blindly and be inflammatory... you would have seen that i addressed your primary issue. Ukraine and others ONLY really wanted their independence AFTER the August Coup of 1991.

In fact the declarations of independence (ESPECIALLY in Ukraine) were literally direct responses to the August coup. Like i said earlier dude... do your history.

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