US supercarrier sunk by French submarine

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[EUG]MadMat
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Re: US supercarrier sunk by French submarine

Postby [EUG]MadMat » Fri 6 Mar 2015 21:22

Vulcan 607 wrote:Good point but they did take orders from a foreign nation the Americans

Well, you should read De Gaulle's memoirs, and those Churchill, Ike, ... and anybody whom has been in donctact with De Gaulle to wonder how "obedient" he was. He was a real pain in the ...
Americans never trusted him, never bothered to give him any order because they didn't recognize him as representative of France, and Roosevelt feared he was a dictator in being. Such that the Americans would have rather dealt with Pétain, through admiral Darlan, before the latter was assassinated! Then they still ignored De Gaulle and played the Giraud card.
Only Churchill kept De Gaulle in the game, and De Gaulle's own intrigues and (bombastic) unflinshing spirit that "he was France". He was only even informed of D-Day 3 days before because Churchill asked him on June 2 to come from Algiers to London "because it was France's interests". Rooselvet or the Americans never even bothered tell him or ask his support.
The only French division landed on Normandy, the "2e DB", was indeed under American command but only put ashore at the end of June. While all the French forces under British command (SAS, Commandos & RAF Squadrons) were given the opportunity to fight on D-Day ... and even the day before for the SAS.

So, yes, we've had troops under American command (Italy, 2e DB, ...) as well as we had under British command (Lebanon, Bir Hakeim, El Alamein, ...) but De Gaulle never took order from anyone on a political level, and especially not from the Americans ... if only because the latter never gave themselves the trouble to, ignoring De Gaulle as if a leper.
Only after De Gaulle landed in France on his own and made a speech at Bayeux, with the population clearly showing, at least, overwhelming support for him, did the Americabns finally take him into consideration.

Vulcan 607 wrote:anyway the French fleet could have joined De Gaulle

Seen with today's eyes, yes, of course, there's no arguing that.
But by then, De Gaulle was a nobody. There was hardly anyone knowing him. And less of all in the Navy.
Very few had heard his "June 18th speech", calling the French people to keep fighting alongside him, the day it was broadcasted. There was no internet back then, but censorship: it tooks weeks, months even for it to be rebroadcasted, printed and passed secretely from hand to hand. And when finally De Gaulle became known by the French, he was just a name. While Pétain on the other hand, who's name back then didn't have the infamous meaning it has now, was known and worshiped by every single French as one of the greatest living military leader and worldwide hero of the most apocalyptic battle in human History, that of Verdun.
As a mere Frenchman, civilian, sailor or soldier, whom would you have followed back then? It is easy today to say that people should have resisted, but during WW, and especially as soon as June-July 40, it was an act of seddition against a legal governement led by the most trusted of all political and military figure in the country.

Pétain became a dictator and a puppet of the nazis, we know it today.
But up to 1944 and even 1945, most people would see the arrogant and petty noble De Gaulle as the more prone to overthrow the Republic, or what was left of it ...

And one can love or hate the character (or both), but in the end, contrary to American expectations, he twice stepped out of a democratic goverment because he was in disagreement with its policy or the people to return to provate life, and gave France its most stable republican regime so far ... :D

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Re: US supercarrier sunk by French submarine

Postby LoneRifle » Fri 6 Mar 2015 21:33

Vulcan 607 wrote:Good point but they did take orders from a foreign nation the Americans


[EUG]MadMat wrote:The only French division landed on Normandy, the "2e DB", was indeed under American command but only put ashore at the end of June.


Said division disobeyed American orders within a month and went off on a YOLO attack move to Paris. It all worked out though. The fear that Paris would get turned into Stalingrad V. France never happened. Just can't trust those pesky French to follow orders when they would rather liberate their country. ;) . Said brutal fight for the city was thankfully avoided by the fact the German army was absolutely shattered and in full flight at the point in time, and lacked the morale and ability to effectively hold for the city. Otherwise things could have gotten really ugly.
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Re: US supercarrier sunk by French submarine

Postby Crotou » Fri 6 Mar 2015 21:49

LoneRifle wrote:Said division disobeyed American orders within a month and went off on a YOLO attack move to Paris. It all worked out though. The fear that Paris would get turned into Stalingrad V. France never happened. Just can't trust those pesky French to follow orders when they would rather liberate their country. ;).


I just read Leclerc's biography written by Jean-Christophe Notin. He was extremely bold and caused much trouble to De Gaulle when the latter tempered him (often by offering his resignation...). :lol: He often disobeyed to American, British or De Gaulle commands.
Last edited by Crotou on Fri 6 Mar 2015 22:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: US supercarrier sunk by French submarine

Postby GBNATO » Fri 6 Mar 2015 22:12

Corsair wrote:As surprising as it might be, yes, German Navy has four diesel-powered Type 212 submarines.


I hear those particular Submarines are exceptionally stealthy.
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Re: US supercarrier sunk by French submarine

Postby Aubustou » Sat 7 Mar 2015 00:57

LoneRifle wrote:
Vulcan 607 wrote:Good point but they did take orders from a foreign nation the Americans


[EUG]MadMat wrote:The only French division landed on Normandy, the "2e DB", was indeed under American command but only put ashore at the end of June.


Said division disobeyed American orders within a month and went off on a YOLO attack move to Paris. It all worked out though. The fear that Paris would get turned into Stalingrad V. France never happened. Just can't trust those pesky French to follow orders when they would rather liberate their country. ;) . Said brutal fight for the city was thankfully avoided by the fact the German army was absolutely shattered and in full flight at the point in time, and lacked the morale and ability to effectively hold for the city. Otherwise things could have gotten really ugly.


The Poles would have done the same. It's amazingly stupid from Eisenhower for not considering that...
"Hey, I have a fully French division led by their best general, who is also said to be utterly reckless, and I'm sure they will just go south and shut up". Frankly...
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Re: US supercarrier sunk by French submarine

Postby Darkmil » Sat 7 Mar 2015 01:10

Orders where given to German soldiers not to fight for Paris, (by the military governor), if there hadn't been a FFI rising in Paris when they learned 2e DB was near Paris, there would have been no fight at all (at least for Paris).
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Re: US supercarrier sunk by French submarine

Postby LoneRifle » Sat 7 Mar 2015 01:26

Aubustou wrote:The Poles would have done the same. It's amazingly stupid from Eisenhower for not considering that...
"Hey, I have a fully French division led by their best general, who is also said to be utterly reckless, and I'm sure they will just go south and shut up". Frankly...


Darkmil wrote:Orders where given to German soldiers not to fight for Paris, (by the military governor), if there hadn't been a FFI rising in Paris when they learned 2e DB was near Paris, there would have been no fight at all (at least for Paris).


No. Eisenhower made the judgement call (that was supported by evidence of how the war had been fought up to that point) that the Germans would fight a city battle and burn Paris to the ground rather than let it fall into the hands of the allies for nothing. Hitlers policy. No one was counting on the Germans openly fleeing after their army got wrecked (they had never done that) and the prevailing opinion was that a race to the Rhine and German border was a far more sound option than diverting men to take Paris. It would have fallen regardless, look at how the rest of France bar some port cities fell. And it is not stupid of a general to expect an order to be carried out.

If it were not for the broken state of the German Army, an attack on the city by the 2nd French Armor would have ended in a bloodbath. The FFI and Leclerc were very lucky that the Germans were in full flight after the Falaise Pocket fell. Of course, everything ended well of course and no hard feelings, and the French under DeGaulle did manage to capitalize on the Propaganda victory to promote themselves to the negotiating table at the end of the war which was for the best. But seriously, they lucked out. A more typical campaign would have resulted in disaster for Paris. And Cholditz did not save Paris on some humanitarian grounds, he would have burned it to the ground if he felt the entire army wasn't disintegrating around him.
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Re: US supercarrier sunk by French submarine

Postby hansbroger » Sat 7 Mar 2015 01:58

In defense of de Gaulle he did have to deal with Americans and Brits who preferred to deal with a succession of Vichy collaborators who at every instance grossly misrepresented their influence and willingness to support the allied cause if not more often obstructing allied efforts in the pursuit of their own petty power struggles when they weren't fomenting outright armed resistance on behalf of the axis powers.

Eisenhower eventually came round to de Gaulle around 1944 and realized he was a useful political and military asset but Roosevelt unrepentantly preferred and supported Vichy until the end, consumed by a strong dislike for De Gaulle who he had never met and seduced by Vichy's ultimately etheral promises of neutrality and even collaboration with the allies that was disproved at every step during the war.

As an American I have a hard time seeing why he should have respect superiors and allies when for much of the war they ignored him while preferring to try and make deals with traitors and Nazi sympathizers.
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Re: US supercarrier sunk by French submarine

Postby Darkmil » Sat 7 Mar 2015 02:16

LoneRifle wrote:If it were not for the broken state of the German Army, an attack on the city by the 2nd French Armor would have ended in a bloodbath. The FFI and Leclerc were very lucky that the Germans were in full flight after the Falaise Pocket fell. Of course, everything ended well of course and no hard feelings, and the French under DeGaulle did manage to capitalize on the Propaganda victory to promote themselves to the negotiating table at the end of the war which was for the best. But seriously, they lucked out. A more typical campaign would have resulted in disaster for Paris. And Cholditz did not save Paris on some humanitarian grounds, he would have burned it to the ground if he felt the entire army wasn't disintegrating around him.


As I said no fight was suppose to happened, so yes, indeed the French Army (EDIT : Division) was lucky, it would have been a less glorious entry in Paris if the German had already left...
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Re: US supercarrier sunk by French submarine

Postby BeyondNight » Sat 7 Mar 2015 02:40

Didn't the Swedish give the USN a scare years ago when they had a AIP propelled sub sneak up on a carrier undetected ?


Also after reading through some of the, dont buy used British or French Vessels... many fires to be had.
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