Indonesian Fighter Procurement

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kvnrthr
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Indonesian Fighter Procurement

Postby kvnrthr » Thu 16 Apr 2015 03:41

So, we're finally getting something to replace those old F-5s. It seems that it is now a competition between:

F-16 Block 60
Rafale
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2015/03/26/france-ready-give-ri-technology-transfer.html
Typhoon
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2015/02/27/spain-eurofighter-typhoon-best-choice-ri.html
Su-35
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2015/03/05/russia-ready-transfer-sukhoi-technologies-ri-envoy.html
Gripen

I'm not sure about the size of the order, but considering the Air Force's past record of buying only a few aircraft at a time (IIRC we bought only up to a few dozen Flankers, spread over nearly a decade) I'm guessing it will be a relatively small order. Probably a dozen at most.

Also, it seems that most of the competitors are ready to give some form of technology transfer, although I am not sure if Indonesia's industry is advanced enough to start licensed production.

I anticipate range would be an important requirement, due to the large area to patrol. It's better not to be too reliant on aerial refueling if possible. Hell, I'm not even sure if we have any aerial refuelers...

Map of Indonesian Air Force Bases:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/TNI-AUbases.png

So, which do you think Indonesia should pick given the requirements?
Hoping for a better next-gen Wargame and new engine in a few years...
One can dream ;_;

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Re: Indonesian Fighter Procurement

Postby fatfluffycat » Thu 16 Apr 2015 04:40

The one that has the most freedom

*cough* F-16 *cough*
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Re: Indonesian Fighter Procurement

Postby TankHunter » Thu 16 Apr 2015 04:43

Gripen or F16 because single-engine master race.
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Re: Indonesian Fighter Procurement

Postby jmpveg22 » Thu 16 Apr 2015 05:22

Well, considering Indonesia's troubled history with the USA on military contracts and the desire to be somewhat independent of western govts. And the fact that Australia is your biggest rival (who seems hell bent on getting the crappy f-35, even though it does not fit the country's needs and is limited in range).

To me the choice is obvious... the SU-35. It is the cheapest to procure, maintain, and punches well above its weight for its cost. It also so far looks to be the F-35s cryptonite, assuming you get a variant that is up to Russian spec. The extremely long range and payload capacity of the SU-35 is ideal for defending a chain of Islands, plus its avionic suite should suffice to cater to the multi-role nature of its mission while at the same time fit the necessity to adequately counter the F-35.

You are dreaming if the USA would give you technology that even had a remote chance of countering the F-35...

The choice is quite clear in my eyes... but since these things are usually decided by bribery and corruption: It's anyone's guess.

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Re: Indonesian Fighter Procurement

Postby another505 » Thu 16 Apr 2015 06:30

TankHunter wrote:Gripen or F16 because single-engine master race.

Single engine looks crap! double engine is the master race

jmpveg22 wrote:Well, considering Indonesia's troubled history with the USA on military contracts and the desire to be somewhat independent of western govts. And the fact that Australia is your biggest rival (who seems hell bent on getting the crappy f-35, even though it does not fit the country's needs and is limited in range).

To me the choice is obvious... the SU-35. It is the cheapest to procure, maintain, and punches well above its weight for its cost. It also so far looks to be the F-35s cryptonite, assuming you get a variant that is up to Russian spec. The extremely long range and payload capacity of the SU-35 is ideal for defending a chain of Islands, plus its avionic suite should suffice to cater to the multi-role nature of its mission while at the same time fit the necessity to adequately counter the F-35.

You are dreaming if the USA would give you technology that even had a remote chance of countering the F-35...

The choice is quite clear in my eyes... but since these things are usually decided by bribery and corruption: It's anyone's guess.


This, im pretty sure that SU-35 has the highest payload, longest range , great for island defense and anti ship capability
besides, indonesia has a bunch of flankers already, easier for pilots to adapt
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Re: Indonesian Fighter Procurement

Postby kvnrthr » Thu 16 Apr 2015 07:00

jmpveg22 wrote:
Spoiler : :
Well, considering Indonesia's troubled history with the USA on military contracts and the desire to be somewhat independent of western govts. And the fact that Australia is your biggest rival (who seems hell bent on getting the crappy f-35, even though it does not fit the country's needs and is limited in range).

To me the choice is obvious... the SU-35. It is the cheapest to procure, maintain, and punches well above its weight for its cost. It also so far looks to be the F-35s cryptonite, assuming you get a variant that is up to Russian spec. The extremely long range and payload capacity of the SU-35 is ideal for defending a chain of Islands, plus its avionic suite should suffice to cater to the multi-role nature of its mission while at the same time fit the necessity to adequately counter the F-35.

You are dreaming if the USA would give you technology that even had a remote chance of countering the F-35...

The choice is quite clear in my eyes... but since these things are usually decided by bribery and corruption: It's anyone's guess.


I'm wondering, what are the known advantages and disadvantages of Su-35 compared to the Typhoon and Rafale? I understand that they are open to speculation but educated guesses are still possible.

Right now I believe the Flanker will probably get picked, due to our current Flanker fleet, but the Indians always seem to complain about the difficulty of getting Russian after-market support, e.g. having to send Su-30MKI engines back to russia for fixes. So it does worry me a bit...

I'm actually wondering about the Rafale; after Russia, I think France is the second most reliable arms dealer, not so ready to attach conditions to arms sales unlike USA. But I believe the Rafale is rather expensive, nearing F-35 cost as well. Supposedly it has limited LO technology from front aspect, though I heard Russians decreased RCS for the Su-35 as well.

Also, do you know if India runs their own production lines for the Su-30MKI? I believe that my country needs to seriously consider improvements in its aircraft technology more than anything, and in my opinion we need the best technology transfer to develop our aeronautical industry, so perhaps in a few decades hopefully we can start to produce some licensed aircraft and missiles, freeing us from relying on foreign purchases. Of course the aircraft we choose should be good, but we have no serious foreseeable enemy (minor tensions with Australia aside) so I believe a good technology transfer should be the main concern.
Hoping for a better next-gen Wargame and new engine in a few years...
One can dream ;_;

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Re: Indonesian Fighter Procurement

Postby another505 » Thu 16 Apr 2015 07:13

kvnrthr wrote:
jmpveg22 wrote:
Spoiler : :
Well, considering Indonesia's troubled history with the USA on military contracts and the desire to be somewhat independent of western govts. And the fact that Australia is your biggest rival (who seems hell bent on getting the crappy f-35, even though it does not fit the country's needs and is limited in range).

To me the choice is obvious... the SU-35. It is the cheapest to procure, maintain, and punches well above its weight for its cost. It also so far looks to be the F-35s cryptonite, assuming you get a variant that is up to Russian spec. The extremely long range and payload capacity of the SU-35 is ideal for defending a chain of Islands, plus its avionic suite should suffice to cater to the multi-role nature of its mission while at the same time fit the necessity to adequately counter the F-35.

You are dreaming if the USA would give you technology that even had a remote chance of countering the F-35...

The choice is quite clear in my eyes... but since these things are usually decided by bribery and corruption: It's anyone's guess.


I'm wondering, what are the known advantages and disadvantages of Su-35 compared to the Typhoon and Rafale? I understand that they are open to speculation but educated guesses are still possible.

Right now I believe the Flanker will probably get picked, due to our current Flanker fleet, but the Indians always seem to complain about the difficulty of getting Russian after-market support, e.g. having to send Su-30MKI engines back to russia for fixes. So it does worry me a bit...

I'm actually wondering about the Rafale; after Russia, I think France is the second most reliable arms dealer, not so ready to attach conditions to arms sales unlike USA. But I believe the Rafale is rather expensive, nearing F-35 cost as well. Supposedly it has limited LO technology from front aspect, though I heard Russians decreased RCS for the Su-35 as well.

Also, do you know if India runs their own production lines for the Su-30MKI? I believe that my country needs to seriously consider improvements in its aircraft technology more than anything, and in my opinion we need the best technology transfer to develop our aeronautical industry, so perhaps in a few decades hopefully we can start to produce some licensed aircraft and missiles, freeing us from relying on foreign purchases. Of course the aircraft we choose should be good, but we have no serious foreseeable enemy (minor tensions with Australia aside) so I believe a good technology transfer should be the main concern.


Su-35 does have lower RCS, but it wont be good as Rafale, i mean, just look at their size difference
India is using su30, i believe the su35 is using a better engine with 4000hrs life
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Re: Indonesian Fighter Procurement

Postby jmpveg22 » Thu 16 Apr 2015 07:19

kvnrthr wrote:
jmpveg22 wrote:
Spoiler : :
Well, considering Indonesia's troubled history with the USA on military contracts and the desire to be somewhat independent of western govts. And the fact that Australia is your biggest rival (who seems hell bent on getting the crappy f-35, even though it does not fit the country's needs and is limited in range).

To me the choice is obvious... the SU-35. It is the cheapest to procure, maintain, and punches well above its weight for its cost. It also so far looks to be the F-35s cryptonite, assuming you get a variant that is up to Russian spec. The extremely long range and payload capacity of the SU-35 is ideal for defending a chain of Islands, plus its avionic suite should suffice to cater to the multi-role nature of its mission while at the same time fit the necessity to adequately counter the F-35.

You are dreaming if the USA would give you technology that even had a remote chance of countering the F-35...

The choice is quite clear in my eyes... but since these things are usually decided by bribery and corruption: It's anyone's guess.


I'm wondering, what are the known advantages and disadvantages of Su-35 compared to the Typhoon and Rafale? I understand that they are open to speculation but educated guesses are still possible.

Right now I believe the Flanker will probably get picked, due to our current Flanker fleet, but the Indians always seem to complain about the difficulty of getting Russian after-market support, e.g. having to send Su-30MKI engines back to russia for fixes. So it does worry me a bit...

I'm actually wondering about the Rafale; after Russia, I think France is the second most reliable arms dealer, not so ready to attach conditions to arms sales unlike USA. But I believe the Rafale is rather expensive, nearing F-35 cost as well. Supposedly it has limited LO technology from front aspect, though I heard Russians decreased RCS for the Su-35 as well.


In my opinion stealth is grossly overrated. Easily counter-able if you know what you are doing. Plus Australia has the Jindalee Radar network that can already counter most stealth aircraft anyway (rumor has it, under many conditions it can reportedly can spot an F-22). I used to live in Australia, and i always said the best way Indonesia could counter Aussie is to bankrupt them. For every Typhoon or Rafale you buy you can buy 2-3 SU-35s. Australia will be forced to counter, and they don't really have the long term economic prospects or intellect to do so (no offense to any Aussies reading this, but deep down you know it is true).

So If Indonesia fields a force of 120 SU-35s that are easier and cheaper to maintain than Aussies possible 100 F-35s (which really are not all weather and have a myriad of other issues)... Australia will be forced to spend huge sums of money to further counter you (because Aussies have a near childlike obsession of seeming significant).

That's just my 2 cents...

If i was Indonesia i would buddy up with Russia and purchase around 120-150 Su-35s to totally overhaul my Airforce, and supplement it with a sizable investment in S-300s or S-400s. Because I know Australia would the next year spend 5 times as much as Indonesia spent (primarily to counter Indonesia) and look like the big kid on the block.

And since the two countries are literally both mining economies. (where the cost of extraction for one is already becoming FAR cheaper than the other)... one will literally piss away its economic prospects on defense spending and remain stagnant, while the other will have $$$ lying around to develop a better national situation. And since Aussies are near myopically focused on maintaining their artificially high std of living... something will have to give (and no offense Aussies but your ability to prioritize is not the most sound).

So long term (over the next 25 years or so)... if Indonesia wants to rival Aussie in many ways... they need to go SU-35. Plus Indonesia would get a very close partnership with the BRICS countries out of it... and that $100billion development bank they created literally for countries like Indonesia.

It really is a match made in heaven... but like i said: "Bribery and corruption typically decide these things".

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Re: Indonesian Fighter Procurement

Postby kvnrthr » Thu 16 Apr 2015 07:58

jmpveg22 wrote:So If Indonesia fields a force of 120 SU-35s that are easier and cheaper to maintain than Aussies possible 100 F-35s (which really are not all weather and have a myriad of other issues)... Australia will be forced to spend huge sums of money to further counter you (because Aussies have a near childlike obsession of seeming significant).


Wish we could afford to do that, but that kind of acquisition quadruples the size of our current fighter fleet... we're not quite at the level of development seen in China, for example. And for all of Australia's population disadvantages, I believe they still hold the advantage of a more educated populace. As much as I like cool planes, economy and intellectual development comes first.

Although if we get enough technology transfer to set up our own production lines, it might be feasible to slowly build up a force of Su-35 over a few decades...
Hoping for a better next-gen Wargame and new engine in a few years...
One can dream ;_;

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Re: Indonesian Fighter Procurement

Postby Nequit » Thu 16 Apr 2015 08:16

You need a production run to be higher than ~200 to even consider it as a viable and economically sane solution.

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