2015 General Election

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Gorganhound
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Re: 2015 General Election

Postby Gorganhound » Sat 9 May 2015 03:43

In Australia we have the upper house (senate) as a proportional vote, while in the lower house it's done with the single transferable vote, based around electorates.
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Kraxis
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Re: 2015 General Election

Postby Kraxis » Sat 9 May 2015 05:13

Graphic wrote:The system you outline sounds like a horror show.

I'd rather have my vote thrown out than be used without my knowledge or consent to help elect a candidate somewhere else I know nothing about, and I don't want the excess vote of someone in a different district being used to determine the outcome of the election in my district.

My vote should only be used exactly how I intended it to be and the outcome of a local election should be decided only by the people who actually reside there.

I do suppose it is very foreign to the USA. I mean you don't really have a very unified party system because they have to really span the entire spectrum with just two parties (I know there are more, but when was the last time they really mattered as organised parties?). Thus the representative for the same party as the candidate that just got voted in in your area, might not really be all that similar in views. I would certainly not be happy if my vote went to a related, but still different party.
I agree that for the Senate, it wouldn't work well. It is effectively built around FPTP and wouldn't mesh well in other circumstances pretty much because it isn't about equality in that sense (Wyoming is equal to Califonia there), but about the states themselves (wasn't there something about the senators being appointed by the states at some point?).

But that's the thing, representative allows for much greater diversity, meaning your vote (in case your preferred candidate did quite poorly), while not affecting you in a direct way, as a FPTP candidate would, would still promote ideas you are rather positive towards on a more broad scale. In this case the national level. And said representative would still be quite favourable to his region, as he would know that his seat would partly be because of regional votes, and would likely try to advance the entire region in the hopes of getting them again.
Would you still prefer him/her not to get in, because their official residence is perhaps 20km further way from you than your preferred candidate (who officially lives 300km away anyway)?

It isn't perfect, no system is. If there was a perfect system that didn't have problems in one way or another, I'm fairly certain we would all use it.

But I can see how different views of what representation is can really make or break things. For me representation is getting my ideas, or what I consider close to my ideas, represented. For you it appears to be get someone local elected (am I getting it right?), that will fight for his area first and foremost.
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Mitchverr
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Re: 2015 General Election

Postby Mitchverr » Sat 9 May 2015 12:04

A regional proportional rep would also work well, for example have Scotland become larger voting regions, same number of total MPs, but with a more EU based system of representation.

1,454,436 - the total number of SNP votes.
707,147 - The number of voters who backed Labour in Scotland
56 - The number of SNP MPs returned.
1 - The number of Labour MPs returned.

If the region was much more fairly represented, then between the 2, Labour would get 32% of the seats, so 18 seats, not 1. The seperate islands where the Lib Dems won for example should be kept out, they have their own regional issues, however much of the Scottish region arguably have simular problems and can easily be dealt with.

Though its complex to work on, it would easily bring much better representation, those labour members are not represented well, it can be seen each time, the party that wins do what they can for their vote base while others suffer more often then not when it comes to government spending.

Im not sure how it goes in the US, but in the UK representation heavily goes in the party line, people vote for their party more so then the local man, thats the council job that gets local man not the MP, the MP is there to tow the party line for you, so i would have the national government regions extend and change, however the local council could change a little, it isnt as bad.
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Re: 2015 General Election

Postby Kraxis » Sat 9 May 2015 14:43

I want to present a theoretical case that has been influenced by a real case, Austin or some other big Texan city.

So we have a region where 5 seats are available. In the middle we have a big city that is a majority of the population, about 60% total. But because of Gerrymandering it has been cut up into five pieces and the cityvoters, who are significantly in favour of party Yellow, get drowned out by the rural people who are even more significantly in favour of party Green. The representatives elected are naturally very much in favour of the rural areas, and don't bother with improving much if anything for the city parts they theoretically should advance as well. The result is that the city not only doesn't get any opinions shared represented, but they don't even get the 'local man' to help them.

In comes the independent commission to clean up the Gerrymandering. The natural solution is to break the electoral areas up into city and rural areas. 3 city and 2 rural fit the 60-40 split fairly well. But wait a moment, the population in the 5 areas are not evenly balanced, overall the Greens are leading by a pretty significant margin because the Greens have much stronger pull in the city than the Yellows have in the rural areas. Overall the Yellows are perhaps not even 40% of the total population! Is it then fair that they go and get 3 seats and the Greens only 2? Arguably not. So perhaps the independent commission should split the area into representative regions? So that the city gets 2 seats and the rural areas 3? Not good either as that means a break in the voters per seat situation. All right, then perhaps take the most Green part of hte city and attach it to a rural upland, that way we get a more fair 3-2, but it has it's own issues. It would very much look like Gerrymandering, and wouldn't it also kill the actual democracy since both sides now have 'given' seats rather than some risk. Besides it probably wouldn't be awesome in that third Green area that is split between rural and city, where the original problem of representation would rear it's ugly head again with the candidate favouring one over the other.
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Re: 2015 General Election

Postby Mitchverr » Sat 9 May 2015 16:23

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... y-election

"lib dems didnt do anything for us" crowd need to be shown this, thankyou, you have given us big brother to a whole new level by letting the tories get a majority, WELL DONE.

This is just the beginning of the tory crazy crap that the lib dems kept under control coming to the front.
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DoktorvonWer
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Re: 2015 General Election

Postby DoktorvonWer » Sat 9 May 2015 16:35

Mitchverr wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/09/theresa-may-revive-snoopers-charter-lib-dem-brakes-off-privacy-election

"lib dems didnt do anything for us" crowd need to be shown this, thankyou, you have given us big brother to a whole new level by letting the tories get a majority, WELL DONE.

This is just the beginning of the tory crazy crap that the lib dems kept under control coming to the front.


Delicious tears :twisted:
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Mitchverr
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Re: 2015 General Election

Postby Mitchverr » Sat 9 May 2015 16:55

DoktorvonWer wrote:
Mitchverr wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/09/theresa-may-revive-snoopers-charter-lib-dem-brakes-off-privacy-election

"lib dems didnt do anything for us" crowd need to be shown this, thankyou, you have given us big brother to a whole new level by letting the tories get a majority, WELL DONE.

This is just the beginning of the tory crazy crap that the lib dems kept under control coming to the front.


Delicious tears :twisted:


To be honest dont see why anyone would be happy with that, privacy is something we should fight for, i dont want big brother looking over my shoulder at things i say to people in private thanks.
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ikalugin
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Re: 2015 General Election

Postby ikalugin » Sat 9 May 2015 16:56

Well you are getting the big brother type surveillance the same way your American comrades do nonetheless.
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DoktorvonWer
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Re: 2015 General Election

Postby DoktorvonWer » Sat 9 May 2015 17:14

Mitchverr wrote:
DoktorvonWer wrote:
Mitchverr wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/09/theresa-may-revive-snoopers-charter-lib-dem-brakes-off-privacy-election

"lib dems didnt do anything for us" crowd need to be shown this, thankyou, you have given us big brother to a whole new level by letting the tories get a majority, WELL DONE.

This is just the beginning of the tory crazy crap that the lib dems kept under control coming to the front.


Delicious tears :twisted:


To be honest dont see why anyone would be happy with that, privacy is something we should fight for, i dont want big brother looking over my shoulder at things i say to people in private thanks.


Oh no, I fully disagree with this particular policy, but I don't see much other 'tory crazy crap' to which to object.
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ikalugin
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Re: 2015 General Election

Postby ikalugin » Sat 9 May 2015 17:15

Well what is the Torry policy in defense?
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