Meanwhile, in the mighty USA ...

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Sunshine
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Re: Meanwhile, in the mighty USA ...

Postby Sunshine » Mon 18 May 2015 04:58

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0486358/?ref_=nv_sr_1
Funny, watching this right now and 15 minutes in I got reminded about the home schooling discussion...
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Re: Meanwhile, in the mighty USA ...

Postby Bollywood Baloney » Mon 18 May 2015 04:59

While that documentary has a point, it loses some of its potency, because while the premise of a Jesus camp is dumb and the people who run it borderline insane, those kids are going to be what? 18 this year? Are we supposed to expect a wave of Christian terrorists? Either they end up going to college where they'll probably lose most of the indoctrination (if they haven't already) or they won't and they'll go back to wherever they came from.

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Re: Meanwhile, in the mighty USA ...

Postby Fade2Gray » Mon 18 May 2015 05:46

I can't say I've ever met home school kids who were raised as "Christian terrorists" before. Sheltered? Yeah, terrorists? No.
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Re: Meanwhile, in the mighty USA ...

Postby Sunshine » Mon 18 May 2015 05:48

Bollywood Baloney wrote:While that documentary has a point, it loses some of its potency, because while the premise of a Jesus camp is dumb and the people who run it borderline insane, those kids are going to be what? 18 this year? Are we supposed to expect a wave of Christian terrorists? Either they end up going to college where they'll probably lose most of the indoctrination (if they haven't already) or they won't and they'll go back to wherever they came from.

I don't think the point is "beware the army of God", the point is rather to show how this fucks up the head of a child and that crap like that is happening in the United States as we speak.
How something like this isn't illegal is beyond me, the adults shown in this documentary should be imprisoned and not let close to any child ever again, since they indoctrinate and abuse them, nothing else.
Also, college, are you kidding me? On what college could these kids go?
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Re: Meanwhile, in the mighty USA ...

Postby Iris » Mon 18 May 2015 07:22

Fade2Gray wrote:I can't say I've ever met home school kids who were raised as "Christian terrorists" before. Sheltered? Yeah, terrorists? No.


Pretty much this.

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Re: Meanwhile, in the mighty USA ...

Postby another505 » Mon 18 May 2015 08:12

Iris wrote:
Fade2Gray wrote:I can't say I've ever met home school kids who were raised as "Christian terrorists" before. Sheltered? Yeah, terrorists? No.


Pretty much this.

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Re: Meanwhile, in the mighty USA ...

Postby Bollywood Baloney » Mon 18 May 2015 08:42

Sunshine wrote:I don't think the point is "beware the army of God", the point is rather to show how this fucks up the head of a child and that crap like that is happening in the United States as we speak.
How something like this isn't illegal is beyond me, the adults shown in this documentary should be imprisoned and not let close to any child ever again, since they indoctrinate and abuse them, nothing else.

Not to get overly philosophical, but every child is indoctrinated to some degree (whether by their parents or the public school system), so if you condemn it here, you should also look at it in other areas. Is teaching children about the merits of the US constitution not indoctrinating them to be American patriots? Lots of parents force their kids to play little league even if they completely lack baseball talent, isn't that indoctrination into sports culture? Granted, neither involves praying to a cutout of George W. Bush, but those are just means; the end is the same. Jesus camp is extreme, there's no question about that, but on a fundamental level it's not that different from other forms of indoctrination.

Mind you, I don't agree with religious camps either, and frankly I think these people are insane but what they do is none of my business. The children aren't harmed in any way that can't be disputed, and the US is a free country, so they can choose their own views when they get older.

I might not personally have gone to any Jesus camps, but I grew up in a very conservative Roman Catholic family and yet now I'm an agnostic. I changed my religious views on my own; there's nothing stopping those children from doing the same when they get older. If their families have a problem with that, fuck' em.

Also, college, are you kidding me? On what college could these kids go?

Religious != stupid. The only hurtle between them and being successful in college are their retarded views on science, but that alone doesn't disqualify them from getting a degree. After all, there are also plenty of people with retarded historical or political views and yet they manage to obtain degrees.

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Re: Meanwhile, in the mighty USA ...

Postby Mitchverr » Mon 18 May 2015 10:51

Bollywood Baloney wrote: Jesus camp is extreme, there's no question about that, but on a fundamental level it's not that different from other forms of indoctrination.

I might not personally have gone to any Jesus camps, but I grew up in a very conservative Roman Catholic family and yet now I'm an agnostic. I changed my religious views on my own; there's nothing stopping those children from doing the same when they get older. If their families have a problem with that, fuck' em.


First bit, debatable, depends on exactly what said camp teachs, if it teaches hatred, discrimination against people for being gay or that science and scientists are evil and cant be trusted, i would say that is highly different to other forms of "indoctrination" such as your little league example where its more teaching them about sports and teamwork/social situations which will not have any true impact on how they treat other people other than (hopefully) to be a decent human to others as you wish to be treated the same in kind.

Your situation sounds like it was alright to be fair(though if it went bad very sorry to hear), i went to an atheist school because i lived in Saudi Arabia, knew litterally nothing about Jesus and the only time i had ever heard about the bible was a Blackadder sketch. Christmas to me was just a time where Santa (then parents) gave gifts to children to make them happy and stuff. When i returned home to a small village full of religious belief(and xenophobia but the 2 generally go hand in hand in many places), my dad had to repeatedly talk to other parents to get them to stop their bs and threaten my brothers teacher(my dad wasnt amused when this teacher threw pens at his son lets put it that way) to get him to stop picking on him for not knowing who Jesus was even though they had been told repeatedly the situation prior to us going to school. So yeah, here i am, with social anxiety and inability to socialise with people issues simply because of the knockon effect from that indoctrination of "attack the non believer" thing.

To say "all indoctrination is the same" is beyond dangerous in my eyes.

Bollywood Baloney wrote:Religious != stupid. The only hurtle between them and being successful in college are their retarded views on science, but that alone doesn't disqualify them from getting a degree. After all, there are also plenty of people with retarded historical or political views and yet they manage to obtain degrees.


Very true, but usually those with success and religion are not the "indoctrinated" i have found. Though the thing is, historical views dont exactly stop you from attaining a science degree in physics, a bad view on science is a fundamental hitter into stopping near all types of degree's as you lack the ability to dissern truth from fact as you will look for facts to back your truth unless you fight hard to stop it.
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Re: Meanwhile, in the mighty USA ...

Postby Oliver » Mon 18 May 2015 14:26

That's all besides the point.
The facts are:
1) It is mandatory for kids in Germany to attend school for at least 10 years. Homeschooling in Germany is not possible by law for a multitude of reasons, one of them being that Germany is so densely populated that there are adequate schools bascially everywhere.
2) The parents in question failed to obey that law.
3) The kids were not taken away immediately at all. Family Wunderlich (which the HSLDA's article is about) had been corresponding with the Jugendamt (Bureau for the youth) for years prior to the ordeal. Hessen State Police and the Jugendamt were at some point forced to enforce the law.
4) Family Wunderlich got back their four kids three weeks later as per urgent decision of a Darmstadt court.
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Re: Meanwhile, in the mighty USA ...

Postby Gronank » Mon 18 May 2015 14:26

Bollywood Baloney wrote:Not to get overly philosophical, but every child is indoctrinated to some degree (whether by their parents or the public school system), so if you condemn it here, you should also look at it in other areas. Is teaching children about the merits of the US constitution not indoctrinating them to be American patriots?

There is a difference between teaching and indoctrination. Indoctrination imparts beliefs and teaching imparts understanding, the difference being that understanding are the justifications of the beliefs the students forms their own.

They may blur in practice but the intention is usually pretty clear, the only thing indoctrination teaches are the consequences of not playing along while someone teaching might take the simple way out of "just trust me on this".

For example, in the US, you got this pledge of allegiance which is creepy as all hell. If that pledge is understood, it's either pointless or not worthy of allegiance. It is simply a tool to encourage patriotism, not on patriotism's own merit, but based on social pressure.
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