#MakeAmericaGreatAgain

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D-M
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby D-M » Wed 25 Jan 2017 19:13

I don't know how effective a military forces subordonnated to the police would be but coming from a country where militaries are have been patroling the streets in all major cities for 2 years, I can tell you it has successfully achieved crippling the troops for a long time :

- training time has been decreased,
- put them at risk (they are often the targets of agressions and "recon"),
- increased fatigue (due to the urgency of the operation, the troops are living in poor conditions and it completly screws up the ops),
- very bad ads for the job (I doubt the guys enrolled just for walking and look sharp and the bonus is ridiculous)

While what Fade propose is different, I think the effect on the troops will be the same : make them unprepared for their actual job.
Last edited by D-M on Wed 25 Jan 2017 19:31, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Fade2Gray » Wed 25 Jan 2017 19:16

Lord Helmchen wrote:Only thing I wanted to say is that it's not like France has become a police-state. :lol:

Some people who liked to say Obama was going to take all of our guns, then turn into Stalin and purge us all. I'm a gun owner, but on the flip side, is Japan's government something diabolical since guns are outlawed there? Is it fascist now? No, but people get really emotional over certain issues.

D-M wrote:While what Fade propose is different, I think the effect on the troops will be the same : make them unprepared for their actual job.


No soldier is ever truly ready to do their job, even after the 6 month intensive train up before deploying downrange that the US military does for units slotted to ship. The key thing is just making sure that too many units are not effected at once.
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby nWODT_Niack » Wed 25 Jan 2017 19:26

Lord Helmchen wrote:Yea, that's how I understood it as well, that they work as a kind of security force but not as a police force. And they really should not have the same powers as the police have but act as a supporting element in raids and object security for example.
Only thing I wanted to say is that it's not like France has become a police-state. :lol:


But real world problems tend to appear when subordinating Army to Police : in the one instance (during the Bataclan attack) where an Army squad could have acted in support of the policemen that where outside the site, they didn't move awaiting an order from the Prefecture de Police de Paris that never came.
AFAIK, the PPP preferred to wait for actual SWAT teams to show up instead of sending in a rag-tag team of cops and grunts, under equipped and untrained for the situation.
Last edited by nWODT_Niack on Wed 25 Jan 2017 19:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby nWODT_Niack » Wed 25 Jan 2017 19:29

Fade2Gray wrote:The key thing is just making sure that too many units are not effected at once.


A luxury France doesn't have. SENTINELLE has had a tangible negative effect on operational preparedness, as well as recruitment.
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Shrike » Wed 25 Jan 2017 19:44

I can say that Chicago and Detroit are beyond help in terms in quick fixes. It's going to have to take an quite investment and towns of time. Dunno about troops, might help a bit, nothing long term though.

The only way to way to hire police in bulk is to drop your standards. If you drop your moral standards, you increase the risk of hiring shady characters and thugs. Lower your health standards and you will risk hiring a ton of people who cant even chase a bad guy. There is also the problem of having officers who are so out of shape that they have to resort to a gun in a hand to hand fight. College educated people would be preferred, but if you spent all your time at college you probably wont get hired do the lack of "work experience".

While having a more educated police is ideal in my opinion, they aren't infallible and they are human like the rest of us. The cultures found in Europe don't translate to what we have in the US.

For example in the us violence is a pretty rooted in our underclass youth. If you belong to a gang, all the other gangs are enemies and anyone who is not in your gang or part of your gang is considered an enemy combatants. Should one gang member run into other its gonna result in hand signs be thrown up, lots of yelling, maybe some threats, worst case scenario is that goes farther and someone gets injured or killed during the contact. Something with police, if you are confront by a cop you either run, injure, or kill them because you decided going to jail was not worth it.

People always say American police are too quick on the draw however imagine this scenario in a large city. It's 2:49AM at night, you get a call about several attempted burglaries in your area of patrol and the suspect is described a tall, latino male, dark hair, with a red hoodie that says NORCAL on the front with a white 24 on the back of the hoodie. So you are told to be on the look out for this person. About an hour later of not finding anything, at 3:35AM you get a call from the local liquor store and a shop lifting, same suspect. You head over there and talk to the store owner and said that the man came in talking to himself and was mad about his girl friend or something. After attempting to walk out without paying the clerk said he confronted him, but the suspect told the clerk to go fuck off and ran out of the store with a bottle Pepsi blue, some beef jerky, and a pack of cigarettes and that he fled 5 minutes ago. So you go looking for him and you find the person that fits his description in the red holding a half empty bottle of Pepsi blue. Keep in mind your nearest back up is 10 minutes and 15 minutes away. It's still dark outside and you have reasonable suspicion to detain this person. You order him to spread out his legs and put his hands on his head and he complies. As you approach him from behind you are about 12ft from him when he starts to start turn around and reaches for something in his front left pants pocket. At this distance a knife attacker can pretty much stab you before you can even draw your pistol, however suppose you came already drawn. At 12 he could be on you in less than a second, so do wait to see what comes out of the pocket or you going to make a split second decision to shoot him to save yourself. Remember in 1 blink of the eye he can stick a blade in your, there is no time to switch over to a taser or any other tool. So do you wait and get stabbed or shoot him and risk calling a man for reaching for his wallet. Given the circumstances that the suspect failed to comply by taking his hands off his head and the fact he quickly reached for something while turning around, you pretty much had reason to believe that your life was threatened. You had reasonable suspicion to stop and detain him for questioning, and the force continuum dictates that you may use lethal force in self defense. Who knows if he plans to stab you, who knows where that knife has been. Who knows he planned to kill or threaten you. While hindsight is 20/20, we aren't psychic and we don't have x-ray vision. However we can sort of read body language and anticipate motions.

With that wall out the way, use of force is inevitable. As a large city you can have a large police force, but still have a ton of crime. Just ask NYPD with its army of officers. You need employment good opportunities, you need to bring business back to your city, a strong speaker to convince someone to give up to the gang and crime life, and some sort of alternative option to deter kids from joining gangs.

I have lots of ideas for programs and after school programs. If have a lot of kids in a group who are bored with something to do, it takes one bad idea and one charismatic person to convince the group to do something stupid. So if boredom is the issue, why not hire some gamer types a few volunteers, maybe a teacher or two to supervise, buy a ton of board(Risk, Axis and Allies, Betrayal at house on the hill, life, monopoly) and card games(dominion, red dragon inn), maybe a DND book. Get a tv and console like say WiiU or playstation with 4 controllers, buy a enough controllers for 4 people buy some cooperative or fighting games like Smash 4, street fighter, or whatever. As for education, perhaps a tutoring program with incentives to come?

The programs are a temporary fix, and having an educated police force is good for when times are peaceful and for curbing racism. However in order to make the table stand we need jobs and employment opportunities. Without income, its pretty hard to not turn towards crime. You gotta eat at the end of the day right? Perhaps some economist, business type could chip in on this.
Last edited by Shrike on Wed 25 Jan 2017 19:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Killertomato » Wed 25 Jan 2017 19:47

Fade2Gray wrote:
Killertomato wrote:This is not going to help, and frankly I'm not sure why you think it would. The problem in Chicago is the deep police work, not presence patrols.

This is why the guard gets called to put down riots and not to stop gun crime.


You say I'm only reading half of you post, then post this. The irony is killing me. If you honestly believe that more "deep police work" is going to fix this then I don't know what to say to you. Much more is needed, and I'm not going to repeat myself on the rest of it.


Deep police work is the thing that's needed to solve the problems Chicago and Detroit and Flint, etc, have. Soldiers walking patrols are not going to solve the problem.

The guard has jobs and half-civillian lives. They do shit out in the "real" world. You should know that since you were one. This is the kind of thing that literally takes years to resolve. Are you going to in-state deploy the 33rd BCT for 5-6-7 years?
orcbuster wrote:USSR gets prototype marsupials, why would you need moose when you got stuff with kickers like that AND transport capability? And I'm not even gonna START on the french Marsupilami, I don't even think thats a real animal! Why no trolls for Norway?

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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Fade2Gray » Wed 25 Jan 2017 19:53

Killertomato wrote:Deep police work is the thing that's needed to solve the problems Chicago and Detroit and Flint, etc, have. Soldiers walking patrols are not going to solve the problem.

The guard has jobs and half-civillian lives. They do shit out in the "real" world. You should know that since you were one. This is the kind of thing that literally takes years to resolve. Are you going to in-state deploy the 33rd BCT for 5-6-7 years?


Deep police work by itself will be just as effective as a National Guard mobilization by itself...

not very much, but by all means, keep cherry picking.
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Killertomato » Wed 25 Jan 2017 19:55

Fade2Gray wrote:
Deep police work by itself will be just as effective as a National Guard mobilization by itself...

not very much, but by all means, keep cherry picking.


No, deep police work is the only way to solve this problem.

We know this because it's happened before and surprise! We didn't call the guard in then either.
orcbuster wrote:USSR gets prototype marsupials, why would you need moose when you got stuff with kickers like that AND transport capability? And I'm not even gonna START on the french Marsupilami, I don't even think thats a real animal! Why no trolls for Norway?

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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Fade2Gray » Wed 25 Jan 2017 20:01

Killertomato wrote:No, deep police work is the only way to solve this problem.


K

Shrike wrote:
Spoiler : :
I can say that Chicago and Detroit are beyond help in terms in quick fixes. It's going to have to take an quite investment and towns of time. Dunno about troops, might help a bit, nothing long term though.

The only way to way to hire police in bulk is to drop your standards. If you drop your moral standards, you increase the risk of hiring shady characters and thugs. Lower your health standards and you will risk hiring a ton of people who cant even chase a bad guy. There is also the problem of having officers who are so out of shape that they have to resort to a gun in a hand to hand fight. College educated people would be preferred, but if you spent all your time at college you probably wont get hired do the lack of "work experience".

While having a more educated police is ideal in my opinion, they aren't infallible and they are human like the rest of us. The cultures found in Europe don't translate to what we have in the US.

For example in the us violence is a pretty rooted in our underclass youth. If you belong to a gang, all the other gangs are enemies and anyone who is not in your gang or part of your gang is considered an enemy combatants. Should one gang member run into other its gonna result in hand signs be thrown up, lots of yelling, maybe some threats, worst case scenario is that goes farther and someone gets injured or killed during the contact. Something with police, if you are confront by a cop you either run, injure, or kill them because you decided going to jail was not worth it.

People always say American police are too quick on the draw however imagine this scenario in a large city. It's 2:49AM at night, you get a call about several attempted burglaries in your area of patrol and the suspect is described a tall, latino male, dark hair, with a red hoodie that says NORCAL on the front with a white 24 on the back of the hoodie. So you are told to be on the look out for this person. About an hour later of not finding anything, at 3:35AM you get a call from the local liquor store and a shop lifting, same suspect. You head over there and talk to the store owner and said that the man came in talking to himself and was mad about his girl friend or something. After attempting to walk out without paying the clerk said he confronted him, but the suspect told the clerk to go fuck off and ran out of the store with a bottle Pepsi blue, some beef jerky, and a pack of cigarettes and that he fled 5 minutes ago. So you go looking for him and you find the person that fits his description in the red holding a half empty bottle of Pepsi blue. Keep in mind your nearest back up is 10 minutes and 15 minutes away. It's still dark outside and you have reasonable suspicion to detain this person. You order him to spread out his legs and put his hands on his head and he complies. As you approach him from behind you are about 12ft from him when he starts to start turn around and reaches for something in his front left pants pocket. At this distance a knife attacker can pretty much stab you before you can even draw your pistol, however suppose you came already drawn. At 12 he could be on you in less than a second, so do wait to see what comes out of the pocket or you going to make a split second decision to shoot him to save yourself. Remember in 1 blink of the eye he can stick a blade in your, there is no time to switch over to a taser or any other tool. So do you wait and get stabbed or shoot him and risk calling a man for reaching for his wallet. Given the circumstances that the suspect failed to comply by taking his hands off his head and the fact he quickly reached for something while turning around, you pretty much had reason to believe that your life was threatened. You had reasonable suspicion to stop and detain him for questioning, and the force continuum dictates that you may use lethal force in self defense. Who knows if he plans to stab you, who knows where that knife has been. Who knows he planned to kill or threaten you. While hindsight is 20/20, we aren't psychic and we don't have x-ray vision. However we can sort of read body language and anticipate motions.

With that wall out the way, use of force is inevitable. As a large city you can have a large police force, but still have a ton of crime. Just ask NYPD with its army of officers. You need employment good opportunities, you need to bring business back to your city, a strong speaker to convince someone to give up to the gang and crime life, and some sort of alternative option to deter kids from joining gangs.

I have lots of ideas for programs and after school programs. If have a lot of kids in a group who are bored with something to do, it takes one bad idea and one charismatic person to convince the group to do something stupid. So if boredom is the issue, why not hire some gamer types a few volunteers, maybe a teacher or two to supervise, buy a ton of board(Risk, Axis and Allies, Betrayal at house on the hill, life, monopoly) and card games(dominion, red dragon inn), maybe a DND book. Get a tv and console like say WiiU or playstation with 4 controllers, buy a enough controllers for 4 people buy some cooperative or fighting games like Smash 4, street fighter, or whatever. As for education, perhaps a tutoring program with incentives to come?

The programs are a temporary fix, and having an educated police force is good for when times are peaceful and for curbing racism. However in order to make the table stand we need jobs and employment opportunities. Without income, its pretty hard to not turn towards crime. You gotta eat at the end of the day right? Perhaps some economist, business type could chip in on this.


Well, took a minute to read, but this is probably one of the best posts on the matter.
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Killertomato » Wed 25 Jan 2017 20:03

Fade2Gray wrote:
Killertomato wrote:No, deep police work is the only way to solve this problem.


K



Half a post again.

Maybe rename yourself Fade1Gray?
orcbuster wrote:USSR gets prototype marsupials, why would you need moose when you got stuff with kickers like that AND transport capability? And I'm not even gonna START on the french Marsupilami, I don't even think thats a real animal! Why no trolls for Norway?

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