#MakeAmericaGreatAgain

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Doinize
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Doinize » Thu 21 Jun 2018 18:09

Markenzwieback wrote:
Doinize wrote:That is very technical. Its the Nuremburg defence and you know it, wrong things dont get less wrong if the institutions that made them are 'democratic'...These people have to know its wrong, or worse, they dont, orthey tell themselves "its the law" and "im just following orders", the difference is irrellevant really.

But is it really that technical? As a federal employee you have to abide by the laws and enforce those passed by the democratically eelected constitutional body. You can't just pick laws which you personally deem incorrect and not enforce them.

Ok, but consider this for one second: The laws can be wrong. Having proper democratic justification doesnt make them less wrong.
South African Apartheid, Jim Crow and the persecution of sexual minorities in western democracys were all passed and enforced by functioning democratic institutions.

But for moral reasons no civil servant is allowed to refuse the fulfillment of orders, hence why I think there is more than a technical difference.

"These were orders."

This isnt about wether or not a civil servant can legally disobey orders, its about wether or not they should.
The laws of the land can be unjust, no matter how democratic it is, that really has jack shit to do with it, but if you enforce these unjust laws, you are doing unjust things. There is no other way to put it.
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Markenzwieback
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Markenzwieback » Thu 21 Jun 2018 20:26

Doinize wrote:Ok, but consider this for one second: The laws can be wrong. Having proper democratic justification doesnt make them less wrong. South African Apartheid, Jim Crow and the persecution of sexual minorities in western democracys were all passed and enforced by functioning democratic institutions.

Hence why you shouldn't blame the officers enforcing the law (unless they are breaking another one in the process), but the government enacting it.

This isnt about wether or not a civil servant can legally disobey orders, its about wether or not they should.
The laws of the land can be unjust, no matter how democratic it is, that really has jack shit to do with it, but if you enforce these unjust laws, you are doing unjust things. There is no other way to put it.

You are trying to separate two things that go together though: Ability to legally refuse orders and the action of refusing orders in cases of questionable legality. If the former isn't present, the latter isn't as easily followed through with. This becomes especially relevant when the law itself isn't necessarily unjust or "wrong": The current situation is based upon the legal ability to take children into custody of the state, which in turn is triggered by illegal migration now seen as a criminal offense and not an infraction anymore.

Here the "should" part of disobeying orders is, without a cristal clear legal justification AND obligation like we have in Germany, a much harder thing to ask for. Is an ICE-official violating a law by separating immigrant children from their parents based on criminal offense charges? You have to keep in mind here that there is no law for the separation of immigrant children from their parents, but this happens due to a criminal offense arrest of the parents. Should a federal agent disobey the orders to arrest someone rated a criminal?

Its much more complicated than just saying "he should disobey the orders", especially if its not an obviously illegal or even clear cut wrong situation.
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Mike » Fri 22 Jun 2018 16:14

The administration can choose not to enforce laws. The federal government chooses not to enforce marijuana laws in states that pass laws in favor of marijuana.
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Doinize
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Doinize » Sat 23 Jun 2018 01:38

Markenzwieback wrote:Its much more complicated than just saying "he should disobey the orders", especially if its not an obviously illegal or even clear cut wrong situation.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 11676.html

:^)
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Shrike » Sat 23 Jun 2018 07:06

Doinize wrote:
Markenzwieback wrote:Its much more complicated than just saying "he should disobey the orders", especially if its not an obviously illegal or even clear cut wrong situation.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 11676.html

:^)

To be fair the UN human rights council is a meme as some of its notable members as it's members include Russia, China, Cuba, Hungary and some other other questionable state actors. Countries who can play the media to create division in the United States. Not to mention the UN itself has been joke considering the numerous genocides that have occurred that they have failed to intervene in. Particularly the one occurring in Myanmar currently. Also guess who will be part of the UN forum on chemical and nuclear weapons? Syria. Also while I may not be a supporter of Israel, the UN seems to criticize the country at every turn while doing nothing. Same thing with the United States, "Look guys, we stood up to someone with empty words. We sure showed them!".

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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Markenzwieback » Sat 23 Jun 2018 09:46

Doinize wrote:https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/un-trump-children-family-torture-separation-border-mexico-border-ice-detention-a8411676.html

:^)

Oh boy, the UNHRC strikes again.

But beyond that: You don't seem to care about the legal context argument I am trying to present. I completely agree with you on the moral side of things. The current handling of the situation is moronic and should be correct immediately, but that doesn't change the legal framework used and the problematic it creates for the individual law enforcement officer and civil servant.

Edit: The only aspect which could be reliable grounds for disobedience are the reported use of psychotropic drugs to tranquilize children and cases physical violence in privately run but government funded detention centers. Than again, the US is still missing a clear cut regulation for legal disobedience like we have in Germany.
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Doinize
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Doinize » Sat 23 Jun 2018 21:56

Shrike wrote:it's members include Russia, China, Cuba, Hungary and some other other questionable state actors. Countries who can play the media to create division in the United States.

First off all, Russia isnt even in the current HR council. The US however is, and so are our lovely Allies, Saudi Arabia and a certain eastern european country, that shall not be named, with a newfound fondness of the Waffen-SS...

You may have your disagreements with regards to how the UN and its institutions work, but that does not mean that human rights are suddenly irrellevant. The point made, from a legal standpoint, is legitimate, it just is. The United States have signed both the CAT and CRC and have ratified the former. Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment is something you could very easily call the treatment of migrant children in these camps...

Also guess who will be part of the UN forum on chemical and nuclear weapons? Syria.

Yeah thats how the UN works. Its Syrias turn. Its not an elected position or something, its simply turn based.

Markenzwieback wrote:Oh boy, the UNHRC strikes again.

Yeah because it very much may be a violation of human rights and international law...
They strike again because its thier fucking job.

You don't seem to care about the legal context argument I am trying to present.

Yeah youre right, i dont really care about wether or not the ICE agents and others involved have a legal right to disobey thier orders.
I completely agree with you on the moral side of things.

Good.
that doesn't change the legal framework used and the problematic it creates for the individual law enforcement officer and civil servant.
Yeah i really dont see that, the internment camps for brown kids with, possible drug trials or use of medication without the recipients knowlegde, should be a dealbreaker for anyone involved. The fact that anyone works for ICE at all is baffeling to me. The only conclusion i can draw from that is simply damning.

The only aspect which could be reliable grounds for disobedience are the reported use of psychotropic drugs to tranquilize children and cases physical violence in privately run but government funded detention centers.

These things are human rights violations and violations of international law, that should be enough for anyone to at least trow in the towel...
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby LoneRifle » Mon 25 Jun 2018 16:34

Grabbed_by_the_Spets wrote:
Markenzwieback wrote:
Grabbed_by_the_Spets wrote:Oh no, a small portion is a country you don't like, how dare there be some form of diversity you don't like. Why don't we just slam puppets or countries that we do like into it!

That's roughly a fourth to a third of the council members. Also, what diversity are you asking for here? Diversity in acceptance and implementation of baisc human rights? Because that surely is the diversity we need on a human rights council of the United Nations...


Yeah, a quarter, not even a sizable minority.

Sorry, but one country can't just pick and choose which nations to show representation within the UN, that defeats the entire purpose of the UN Council. We got a few shitters of countries, they are still a minority.

Did you ever look into the criticism about Agenda Item 7 or is it all irrelevant because its Israel?


It's because Israel is a calling card for United States and much of the western world accepting and supporting human rights violations. It's just more and more shitty excuses and whataboutisms.

I'm sorry, but it's been quite abundantly clear that the Repubs and Israel are colluding with each other to support their gains.

And before you bring them up, yes, I feel the same way about the likes of Saudi Arabia and Qatar, Turkey, etc.

Israel has been condemned by the UNHRC a total of 68 times between 2006 and 2016. About three times as much as Syria, with more than blatant human rights abuses documented (20 condemnations). Fucking North Korea with its gulag system and collective punishment was only condemned nine times in that period.


Syria got bombed several times after it violated human rights. North Korea has had direct intervention from a UN collation which resulted in a 50 year war.

Israel gets commendation all the time because US vetoes further action every time, so yes, they should continue pushing condemnations until further actions have applies. I've only seen it not vetoed once, which resulted in declaring war on us! And then the Trump administration vetoed it anyway!

So no, I will not let "but Israel" excuse pass, especially considering that they are both openly corrupt and colluding. And especially considering that both are become more and more blatant with their human rights violations.

EDIT: your link doesn't work BTW.


I just couldn't resist checking the off topic while I looked for a tutorial thread for a friend.

Same uneducated drivel as before. Maybe I should come out of retirement. Gotta remind certain leftist snowflakes of the harsh realities of life.
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Grabbed_by_the_Spets » Mon 25 Jun 2018 19:12

LoneRifle wrote: Gotta remind certain leftist snowflakes of the harsh realities of life.



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Jeez Lone, I'm so disappointed, months of prep work and all you come up with is something that sounds like a bot would say on The_Donald, sad!

But anyhow, speaking of harsh realities, how's that SF/Foreign Legion training you bragged on about almost a year ago going?
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby LoneRifle » Mon 25 Jun 2018 20:00

*Yawn

I suppose I could start with the viewpoint of the uneducated about Israel and the USA (Evul Republicans) somehow colluding to deny basic human rights to poor Palestinians, but that got answered fairly well. While withdrawing from the UN HR panel is a massive political mistake, one can’t deny it’s a cesspool that is interested in anything but upholding human rights in the world.

Believing that all those massive human rights offenders sitting on the panel will actually accomplish anything that benefits their own peoples, much less Israelis and Palestinians rights is Corbyn level stupid.

You should try to expand your viewpoints and arguments Spetz. Such drivel coming from you is like Fire And Fury.
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