#MakeAmericaGreatAgain

User avatar
Doinize
Lieutenant
Posts: 1431
Joined: Tue 30 Jul 2013 13:14
Contact:

Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Doinize » Thu 21 Jun 2018 00:59

Markenzwieback wrote:
Doinize wrote:


amazing.

and by amazing i mean fucking terrifiying

Well, there is a worlds difference between saying "they are enforcing laws enacted by Congress" and the "just following orders" paradigm (I think) you/the comments under the video are implying. And before you bring up the "descrimination and persecution of Jews was legal in Nazi Germany" argument: The German "parliament" that passed those laws can by no means be considered a democratic one, whereas the current US Congress still is a democratically elected institution.


That is very technical. Its the Nuremburg defence and you know it, wrong things dont get less wrong if the institutions that made them are 'democratic'...These people have to know its wrong, or worse, they dont, orthey tell themselves "its the law" and "im just following orders", the difference is irrellevant really.
Image

User avatar
Grabbed_by_the_Spets
General
Posts: 6553
Joined: Fri 16 Mar 2012 11:40
Contact:

Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Grabbed_by_the_Spets » Thu 21 Jun 2018 02:35

The Trump administration is planting tariffs worldwide, bailing out on the UN human rights counsel, starting it's own military branch in space, and has started separating parents from families and caging up their children...

Reddit:

Image
Image

User avatar
Grabbed_by_the_Spets
General
Posts: 6553
Joined: Fri 16 Mar 2012 11:40
Contact:

Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Grabbed_by_the_Spets » Thu 21 Jun 2018 05:56

So far, as it is going.

- China has started threatening tariffs tariffs to US imports.
- India has since introduced high tariffs in all US imports.
- EU has hit US with high tariffs on all manufactured products.

Won't be long until the likes of the rest of SE Asia, Canada and Australasia follow suit.

Good to see this trade war is so good and easy to win...
Image

User avatar
Markenzwieback
Captain
Posts: 1707
Joined: Tue 27 Oct 2015 17:06
Contact:

Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Markenzwieback » Thu 21 Jun 2018 08:43

Grabbed_by_the_Spets wrote:bailing out on the UN human rights counsel

That was the only sensible move from that list though. The current council is, just as its predecessor, pretty damn laughable.

Doinize wrote:That is very technical. Its the Nuremburg defence and you know it, wrong things dont get less wrong if the institutions that made them are 'democratic'...These people have to know its wrong, or worse, they dont, orthey tell themselves "its the law" and "im just following orders", the difference is irrellevant really.

But is it really that technical? As a federal employee you have to abide by the laws and enforce those passed by the democratically eelected constitutional body. You can't just pick laws which you personally deem incorrect and not enforce them.

Even under the remonstration clause in German law, a civil servant only has to express his doubts on the legality of the task given, but if two disciplinary superiors rule over him, he is compelled to fulfill the task given anyway. Using this process though, the civil servant is later protected from legal action of any sort when fulfilling the given task, so no "Nuremburg defence" argument. ONLY if he/she would commit a crime in the process, one is dismissed from the responsability to fulfill the task given.

I personally don't know if such a clause exists in the US. And even if it should exist, I again draw the line at the point of legality and laws passed by the democratically elected officials (which was the foundation for the current seperation of children from their parents). The argument of "protecting the children" might look and be a very stupid one to bring forward, but it serves the legality of the process (not that I like this treatment, don't get me wrong). The moral question, however, is a totally different one. But for moral reasons no civil servant is allowed to refuse the fulfillment of orders, hence why I think there is more than a technical difference.
Image

User avatar
Grabbed_by_the_Spets
General
Posts: 6553
Joined: Fri 16 Mar 2012 11:40
Contact:

Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Grabbed_by_the_Spets » Thu 21 Jun 2018 09:11

Markenzwieback wrote:
Grabbed_by_the_Spets wrote:bailing out on the UN human rights counsel

That was the only sensible move from that list though. The current council is, just as its predecessor, pretty damn laughable.


Yeah, never thought about it, who needs to be moderated anyways?

Let's just pull every human rights watch out and do what we want! Screw human rights, I've got power!
Image

User avatar
Markenzwieback
Captain
Posts: 1707
Joined: Tue 27 Oct 2015 17:06
Contact:

Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Markenzwieback » Thu 21 Jun 2018 09:38

Grabbed_by_the_Spets wrote:Yeah, never thought about it, who needs to be moderated anyways?

Let's just pull every human rights watch out and do what we want! Screw human rights, I've got power!

Yes, the Human rights council made up of the great human rights defenders Afghanistan, Angola, Burundi, China, Cuba, Congo, Egypt, Ethiopia, Iraq, Qatar, Rwanda, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirate and Venezuela. :roll: Add to that Agenda Item 7 and the joke of a council is complete.

Also its not like the US hasn't put forward offers of reform before pulling out, but that is generally left out of media coverage so far.
Image

User avatar
Grabbed_by_the_Spets
General
Posts: 6553
Joined: Fri 16 Mar 2012 11:40
Contact:

Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Grabbed_by_the_Spets » Thu 21 Jun 2018 09:51

Markenzwieback wrote:
Grabbed_by_the_Spets wrote:Yeah, never thought about it, who needs to be moderated anyways?

Let's just pull every human rights watch out and do what we want! Screw human rights, I've got power!

Yes, the Human rights council made up of the great human rights defenders Afghanistan, Angola, Burundi, China, Cuba, Congo, Egypt, Ethiopia, Iraq, Qatar, Rwanda, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirate and Venezuela. :roll:

Also its not like the US hasn't put forward offers of reform before pulling out, but that is generally left out of media coverage so far.


Oh no, a small portion is a country you don't like, how dare there be some form of diversity you don't like. Why don't we just slam puppets or countries that we do like into it!

Add to that Agenda Item 7 and the joke of a council is complete.


And of course... Israel
Image

User avatar
Markenzwieback
Captain
Posts: 1707
Joined: Tue 27 Oct 2015 17:06
Contact:

Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Markenzwieback » Thu 21 Jun 2018 11:22

Grabbed_by_the_Spets wrote:Oh no, a small portion is a country you don't like, how dare there be some form of diversity you don't like. Why don't we just slam puppets or countries that we do like into it!

That's roughly a fourth to a third of the council members. Also, what diversity are you asking for here? Diversity in acceptance and implementation of baisc human rights? Because that surely is the diversity we need on a human rights council of the United Nations...

Grabbed_by_the_Spets wrote:And of course... Israel

Did you ever look into the criticism about Agenda Item 7 or is it all irrelevant because its Israel?

Israel has been condemned by the UNHRC a total of 68 times between 2006 and 2016. About three times as much as Syria, with more than blatant human rights abuses documented (20 condemnations). Fucking North Korea with its gulag system and collective punishment was only condemned nine times in that period. Venezuela, Turkey, China, Russia, Saudia Arabia, heck even Zimbabwe weren't even matter of debate in the council. Further, Israel is the only fixed agenda points in the UNHRC. No other country has a similar status.

Its the matter of proportion, which fuels the criticism and makes up one of the arguments for a well justified move of the United States in my opinion. The UNHRC is more than biased against certain nations and a tool of countries with a shitty human rights situation. If you need further reading on that, I suggest you punch this into google translate: https://www.reporter-ohne-grenzen.de/de ... ufgreifen/
Image

User avatar
Grabbed_by_the_Spets
General
Posts: 6553
Joined: Fri 16 Mar 2012 11:40
Contact:

Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Grabbed_by_the_Spets » Thu 21 Jun 2018 11:59

Markenzwieback wrote:
Grabbed_by_the_Spets wrote:Oh no, a small portion is a country you don't like, how dare there be some form of diversity you don't like. Why don't we just slam puppets or countries that we do like into it!

That's roughly a fourth to a third of the council members. Also, what diversity are you asking for here? Diversity in acceptance and implementation of baisc human rights? Because that surely is the diversity we need on a human rights council of the United Nations...


Yeah, a quarter, not even a sizable minority.

Sorry, but one country can't just pick and choose which nations to show representation within the UN, that defeats the entire purpose of the UN Council. We got a few shitters of countries, they are still a minority.

Did you ever look into the criticism about Agenda Item 7 or is it all irrelevant because its Israel?


It's because Israel is a calling card for United States and much of the western world accepting and supporting human rights violations. It's just more and more shitty excuses and whataboutisms.

I'm sorry, but it's been quite abundantly clear that the Repubs and Israel are colluding with each other to support their gains.

And before you bring them up, yes, I feel the same way about the likes of Saudi Arabia and Qatar, Turkey, etc.

Israel has been condemned by the UNHRC a total of 68 times between 2006 and 2016. About three times as much as Syria, with more than blatant human rights abuses documented (20 condemnations). Fucking North Korea with its gulag system and collective punishment was only condemned nine times in that period.


Syria got bombed several times after it violated human rights. North Korea has had direct intervention from a UN collation which resulted in a 50 year war.

Israel gets commendation all the time because US vetoes further action every time, so yes, they should continue pushing condemnations until further actions have applies. I've only seen it not vetoed once, which resulted in declaring war on us! And then the Trump administration vetoed it anyway!

So no, I will not let "but Israel" excuse pass, especially considering that they are both openly corrupt and colluding. And especially considering that both are become more and more blatant with their human rights violations.

EDIT: your link doesn't work BTW.
Image

User avatar
Markenzwieback
Captain
Posts: 1707
Joined: Tue 27 Oct 2015 17:06
Contact:

Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Markenzwieback » Thu 21 Jun 2018 12:54

Grabbed_by_the_Spets wrote:Sorry, but one country can't just pick and choose which nations to show representation within the UN, that defeats the entire purpose of the UN Council.

Its not about picking who is on the council, but the purpose of it. You can't deny that it is pretty laughable when some of the worst human rights offenders can go around critizing others for their own crimes. This is why I really liked the push of the US for reforms, but nothing came of it because of the veto of major seats in the council.

Grabbed_by_the_Spets wrote:Syria got bombed several times after it violated human rights.

Syria got bombed because of the use of chemical weapons, not their inherent torture and daily human rights abuse. Those went on way before and still go on today.

Grabbed_by_the_Spets wrote:North Korea has had direct intervention from a UN collation which resulted in a 50 year war.

Again, not about human rights but a result of the military aggression by the North. The Gulag system is still present today and has nothing to do with the 1950 UN intervention.

But beyond that, the point that Israel is the only fixed Agenda topic in every meeting of the council, whereas undoubtly worse offenders rarely ever get discussed, still stands. If North Korea and Syria would be on the same level of attention, I would see it justified that Israel is a fixed topic, but not in the current imbalanced agenda setup.

Grabbed_by_the_Spets wrote:EDIT: your link doesn't work BTW.

Here is the link again, now in full: https://www.reporter-ohne-grenzen.de/deutschland/alle-meldungen/meldung/un-anhoerung-kritik-aufgreifen/
Image

Return to “Off-Topic”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests