#MakeAmericaGreatAgain

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Grabbed_by_the_Spets
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Grabbed_by_the_Spets » Mon 2 Jul 2018 11:21

Speaking of economically shooting oneself in the foot.

https://www.axios.com/trump-trade-war-leaked-bill-world-trade-organization-united-states-d51278d2-0516-4def-a4d3-ed676f4e0f83.html

Trump seems to be planning on abolishing the WTO.
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Shrike
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Shrike » Mon 2 Jul 2018 18:32

Grabbed_by_the_Spets wrote:
Shrike wrote:Trudeau is a dictator apologist and Merkel is in Putin's pocket with nord stream 2. Plus has been dealing with lacky leaders and parties longer than Trump has been in office, particularly Orban and whatever is going on in the UK. Also if the far right fails to take over most of the european countries, the far left will since they also claim to be against the establishment liberals and centrists. Corbyn has been anti-NATO and anti-EU for awhile, has had isolationist stances along with Bernie Sanders and Jill Stein.


Tredeau sent a single tweet about Fidel when he died, hardly a dictator apologist.

Corbyrn is Pro-EU and anti-Brexit, he's anti-NATO because he doesn't believe in the constant interventions they've preformed in recent history and the EU's increasing reliance on US strong-arming.

Sanders is pretty much the complete of an isolationist, don't know what makes you think otherwise.

I also don't belive in your, fallcy for far-right/far-left stuff, Emmanuel Macron is hardly "Far-left" and fought against right wing populism.

Regardless, this is more about the economic policies that Trump is bringing up. The steel and aluminum tariffs are a policy that has been done before, under George Bush Jr and was arguably the economic policy which kickstarted the 2008 financial crisis. This time though most other countries have learned their lessons are are siding against the US' commandments.

It may even be worse, Trump is planning to do the same with US supplied medicine, something I can't see any country conforming to, and I doubt Trump, nor his cabinet are smart enough to pull the plug in time like with the earlier tariffs. This is going to be a humongous nose-dive for the US economy.

Trudeau: Praising castro was a big turn off me. People literally had to make ramshackle boats to get off his island and he thinks he is a great man. He also has no interest in modernizing Canada's military spending.

Corbyn: https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-brit ... SKCN1J123J
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/0 ... embership/
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36633238
While its true that he said wants the UK to remain in the EU, in the past he has been critical of the EU and his claims are rather shakey. In terms of isolationism he has been against the Iraq war/Afghanistan and wanted the UK to pull out of Nato. He said 404 was the United State's fault for wanting to expand NATO. He also likes Hugo Chavez and failed to criticize Maduro and instead with Trump's both sides argument. Also he hangs out with Hamas and Hezbollah. If he had his way he'd probably be at a dinner table with Putin right now.

Sanders: He ran his campaigned off domestic issues that appealed mostly to millennials and lacked a foreign policy.

Macron: I never called him a leftist. He's seems like a pretty reasonable fellow and appears to be doing some good things for France.

Fringe politics: Austria, Poland, Bulgaria, and Hungary are examples that far right style governments are alive and well. Western Universities on the other hand seem to lean but too much to the left. Also like a horseshoe both groups seem to have similar ideas. For example both the alt right and the far left hate the so called rich elites, most of whom happen to be Jewish. You can find antisemitism among both groups, except with the left they try to mask where as the right just wears it proudly. Things like NATO are seen by the left as American imperialism, while for the far right something like NATO is seen as the work of evil globalists or jewish cabals. The two never seem to directly clash except at Trump rallies, most of the time they same to be busy accusing the center of being the thing opposite of their ideology. Like Hillary Clinton, she is hated by the far right because they see has some globalist puppet while the left hates here because she doesnt actually represent the "people" and rigged the system against poor comrade Bernie. Also establishment parties that are neither too far left or too far right are always getting pounced on by folks from chapotraphouse for being evil fascists despite being center or center right, or from the far right as being evil marxists when they are just liberal.

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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Doinize » Tue 3 Jul 2018 20:54

Shrike wrote:Also like a horseshoe both groups seem to have similar ideas. For example both the alt right and the far left hate the so called rich elites, most of whom happen to be Jewish.

"The jewish bourgois is your enemy, not because he is jewish but because he is bourgois" - V.I. Lenin

The far-right hates the (supposedly) jewish bourgois for being jewish, not for being bourgois.
These positions are litterally opposites.

Things like NATO are seen by the left as American imperialism, while for the far right something like NATO is seen as the work of evil globalists or jewish cabals.

Ok but one of those is just straight up true and the other is wrong. (tip: its the one without the jews)

The two never seem to directly clash except at Trump rallies

l o l
W h a t
"They never clash directly, exept all the times they do"
Are you complaining they dont set up 10v10 fights in some forest like football hooligans or what?

Like Hillary Clinton, she is hated by the far right because they see has some globalist puppet while the left hates here because she doesnt actually represent the "people" and rigged the system against poor comrade Bernie

>far left
>Sanders supporters
:^)

You cant ignore all the differences you yourself point out to say "eh they basically are the same because they both dislike bad things"
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Markenzwieback » Wed 4 Jul 2018 00:15

Doinize wrote:
Shrike wrote:Also like a horseshoe both groups seem to have similar ideas. For example both the alt right and the far left hate the so called rich elites, most of whom happen to be Jewish.

"The jewish bourgois is your enemy, not because he is jewish but because he is bourgois" - V.I. Lenin

The far-right hates the (supposedly) jewish bourgois for being jewish, not for being bourgois.
These positions are litterally opposites.

Why am I not surprised that a commie focuses only on a single aspect denying any relation between Soviet communism and antisemitism. :roll:

Jewish Oblast, the so called "Doctors plot", mass immigration due to antisemitism after 1967 or the treatment of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee are just some aspects to mention. (And I forgot the names of Jewish scientists who wrote up a contemporary history of the holocaust only to get sacked by the Soviets afterwards. Time to get my Soviet history lecture notes out again, I guess.)

But hey, Vladimir Ilyich once said ... and the 'real communism' argument, right?

Doinize wrote:
Things like NATO are seen by the left as American imperialism, while for the far right something like NATO is seen as the work of evil globalists or jewish cabals.

Ok but one of those is just straight up true and the other is wrong. (tip: its the one without the jews)

*le imperialist face*

But than again: definitions matter. Applying Webers or Lenins will get you fundamentally different results. ;)
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Grabbed_by_the_Spets » Wed 4 Jul 2018 16:14

Antisemitism was a huge trend common across all areas of the 20th century, which everyone engaged in (unfortunately), so I don't really think it has to do with the left-right divide.

Honestly, I was going to write up a lengthy paragraph on every key point, but I'm sick and tired to s**t about arguing the old "Horseshoe theory" from several years of having to put up with it on reddit and other social media. To me it's just another "Le both sides" arguments enlightened centralist like to shout out whenever something tragic happens.

I also don't understand why you think disliking the war on Iraq/Afghanistan is isolationalist, it achieved absolutely nothing of value and left both the coalitions and invaded countries in a much worse state that they started with.
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Doinize » Wed 4 Jul 2018 17:57

Markenzwieback wrote:Why am I not surprised that a commie focuses only on a single aspect denying any relation between Soviet communism and antisemitism. :roll:


Nice how you jumped from me disagreeing with the notion that the far-left is essentially antisemitic for thier antagonism against the rich, to me supposedly saying that there was no antisemitsm in the Soviet Union...

Look if you want to talk about the relation between the bolshewiks and antisemitism, lets do that. Its really interestsing and not as black and white as it has been portrayed by people.

In the U.S.S.R. anti-semitism is punishable with the utmost severity of the law as a phenomenon deeply hostile to the Soviet system. Under U.S.S.R. law active anti-semites are liable to the death penalty. -J.W.Stalin 1931

Yeah. That Stalin. Doctors plot Stalin. I think I made my point...

Of course there was antisemitism in the Soviet Union, as there had been antisemitism for centuries in Russia. If you look at 404 land 1917-1920 for example there were, despite openly denounced by the Bolshevik leadership, sackings and progroms against Jews. (somewhat owing to the fact that no beligerent had any real control of thier own forces, which were comprised by local Atamans aka. Warlords) Some even comitted by jewish Red Guard forces who viewed them as traitors for not joining the Reds...
This, while other factions such as the Green Army and obviously the Whites, did a lot worse things during that time, and for completely different reasons this has to be aknowleged. The only ones who actively tried to stop thier forces in any meaningfull way were the Menshewik UNR, although they were unsuccessfull

Jewish Oblast

Ok, I've never seen the JAO brought up as a bad thing, please elaborate.


But hey, Vladimir Ilyich once said ... and the 'real communism' argument, right?

No I dont do that anymore...But also the Soviet Union litterally never claimed to have achived communism :^)
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Markenzwieback » Wed 4 Jul 2018 20:28

Doinize wrote:
Spoiler : :
Nice how you jumped from me disagreeing with the notion that the far-left is essentially antisemitic for thier antagonism against the rich, to me supposedly saying that there was no antisemitsm in the Soviet Union...

Look if you want to talk about the relation between the bolshewiks and antisemitism, lets do that. Its really interestsing and not as black and white as it has been portrayed by people.

In the U.S.S.R. anti-semitism is punishable with the utmost severity of the law as a phenomenon deeply hostile to the Soviet system. Under U.S.S.R. law active anti-semites are liable to the death penalty. -J.W.Stalin 1931

Yeah. That Stalin. Doctors plot Stalin. I think I made my point...

Of course there was antisemitism in the Soviet Union, as there had been antisemitism for centuries in Russia. If you look at 404 land 1917-1920 for example there were, despite openly denounced by the Bolshevik leadership, sackings and progroms against Jews. (somewhat owing to the fact that no beligerent had any real control of thier own forces, which were comprised by local Atamans aka. Warlords) Some even comitted by jewish Red Guard forces who viewed them as traitors for not joining the Reds...
This, while other factions such as the Green Army and obviously the Whites, did a lot worse things during that time, and for completely different reasons this has to be aknowleged. The only ones who actively tried to stop thier forces in any meaningfull way were the Menshewik UNR, although they were unsuccessfull

And you jumped with the mentioning of the far-left right to the communist section of it. And quoting Lenin will get you a reply about Soviet communism. ;)

Doinize wrote:Ok, I've never seen the JAO brought up as a bad thing, please elaborate.

If I remember my readings correctly, the one and only reason to "grant" the Jews an (ostensibly) autonomous oblast was to ensure the security of the thinly-populated border regions.
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Mike » Thu 5 Jul 2018 02:46

Happy Independence Day my fellow Americans!
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Doinize » Thu 5 Jul 2018 04:06

Markenzwieback wrote:
Doinize wrote:Ok, I've never seen the JAO brought up as a bad thing, please elaborate.

If I remember my readings correctly, the one and only reason to "grant" the Jews an (ostensibly) autonomous oblast was to ensure the security of the thinly-populated border regions.

Eh there was more to it than that. A Jewish Oblast was considered for years by the point it was set up, for one to create a soviet alternative to Zionism. The location was also in part chosen because, unlike say a certain black sea peninsula that was also considered, there were no antisemites there that could get pissed if you suddenly settle a bunch of jews there.
Soviet authorities also kinda lied about the weather in the region to make it seem more attractive...

The JAO was sort of a good idea executed without regards for the results. They kinda just slapped it into the middle of nowhere and left the Jews in charge of the mess. A lot of soviet Jews wanted it to work, and in part, they made it work, its just not the thing it could have been due to even the Jews within the Communist Party disliking the idea as nationalist and not really compatible with socialism.
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Re: #MakeAmericaGreatAgain

Postby Shrike » Fri 6 Jul 2018 08:54

The deportation of veterans made me mad, but deporting volunteers who want to be part of this country and turning them away leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.
https://apnews.com/38334c4d061e493fb108bd975b5a1a5d

Grabbed_by_the_Spets wrote:Antisemitism was a huge trend common across all areas of the 20th century, which everyone engaged in (unfortunately), so I don't really think it has to do with the left-right divide.

Honestly, I was going to write up a lengthy paragraph on every key point, but I'm sick and tired to s**t about arguing the old "Horseshoe theory" from several years of having to put up with it on reddit and other social media. To me it's just another "Le both sides" arguments enlightened centralist like to shout out whenever something tragic happens.

I also don't understand why you think disliking the war on Iraq/Afghanistan is isolationalist, it achieved absolutely nothing of value and left both the coalitions and invaded countries in a much worse state that they started with.

As far as antisemitism goes I've seen in some circles depending on the group. I've seen some people who claim to be progressive, however when it comes to hot topics like Israel some people use it as a opportunity to mask their antisemitism. As far the the right goes, they don't even try to hide it. I knew guy who always told me Soros was an evil man and that someone try hang him like they did with Mussolini. After hearing that I have since distanced myself form that person because he was starting to reveal his true self. If had to guess he's still probably in Estonia and still denying that he is fascist wall calling for violence against boat refugees and liberals.

Le both sides: Trump dropped ball by failing to call out the white nationalists and instead used some weak general statement. Not that I like antifa, but Trump is probably aware of his supporters of the far right.

In terms of horseshoe theory I see it as groups on the polar opposite end of the spectrum who have similar ideas. For example both the far right nationalists and the far left socialists/communists are strongly opposed toward the neoconservative and the neoliberal ideas of globalism. You also had Bernie fans voting for Trump to spite Hillary.

Another thing too has how both groups are pretty gullible and easily manipulated. You don't have to research too deeply to find out that Russia has been seeking to re-enter the world stage as a power. However there have been some obstacles to that mainly with United States and NATO. For Russia it would difficult to challenge that directly, however through covert action you can weaken the US's power and influence by manipulating it's internal politics through covert action. The group's it supports dont have to be direct contact with Russia, just that those groups can achieve their goals if it also benefits Russia long term. The book Foundations of Geopolitics for example calls for using covert agents to support groups which create internal chaos and disruption. Trump's an impulsive man who see's things as zero sum and that everyone else has been mooching off the US for too long and has in the past talked about pulling out of NATO. Then have the black bloc groups and Antifa who hate Trump. When you use a combination of bots and foreign agents to get people to vote for Trump you also have agents supporting groups like Antifa by getting them to do their thing to help legitimize Trump's presidency to achieve the goal of breaking up nato and getting the US out of world affairs. Also by backing not all white nationalists and antifa and pitting them against each other to create chaos, you also backing groups which are opposed to the idea of globalism to create political fracturing and division in the US.

Which brings me to the isolationists with folks like Ron Paul and Corbyn who have advocated for leaving NATO have been strong anti-war supporters. The Iraq war helped spawn a new generation of isolationists quite a few waves. No surprise that Alex Jones was an anti-Iraq war supporter, if you look at his older videos he talks about how the Rothchilds funded, armed and supplied the US to destabilize Iraq and blanket the country in uranium bullets to contaminate the people. Also he cited 9/11 was a inside job to legitimize the power of "globalists" to increase defense spending and pass authoritarian measures. ON the left wing side of things, people are convinced that the war was basically the US flexing its strength and strong arming the world into going along with the war to steal iraq's oil in the name of American imperialism. Also the lack of WMDs turning up made people skeptical of the US and its role in world affairs combined with the project to increase Patriot missiles in eastern europe during a time when Russia was quiet with the exception of it's test run in Georgia. Plus there is this belief that Saddam was some kind of progressive and uncorruptable leader who stood up to terrorists when in actuality Saddam was a warmongerer(kuwait/iran) and genocidal leader(see: anfal genocide). Same deal with Assad, Secular leader who stands up to terrorists who in actuality uses chemical weapons on his own people who rules through an iron fist. Yet the right loves them because they are strong armed leaders who happen to kill the people the right hates, and the left loves them because they are allegedly standing up to American imperialism. Also with isolationists, these wars are seen as pointless with condescending arguments like "war is pointless" or "this particular war got bunch of OUR people killed at our tax expense". Lot of arguments for lowering what they call pointless defense spending and shuffling it toward healthcare, NASA, education, etc. Either way if they got their way, US stays out of world affairs and Russia has less opposition.

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