Blinded by the Rising Sun? American Intelligence Assessments of Japanese Air and Naval Power, 1920-1941

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Killertomato
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Re: Blinded by the Rising Sun? American Intelligence Assessments of Japanese Air and Naval Power, 1920-1941

Postby Killertomato » Fri 21 Oct 2016 22:03

Admiral Piett wrote:Anyway, the Japanese training program itself was exceptionally demanding, but not necessarily in practical ways (i.e. flight hours).


There's truth to all the stories about Japanese pilot training basically Ranger School + added sadism, then?
orcbuster wrote:USSR gets prototype marsupials, why would you need moose when you got stuff with kickers like that AND transport capability? And I'm not even gonna START on the french Marsupilami, I don't even think thats a real animal! Why no trolls for Norway?

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Re: Blinded by the Rising Sun? American Intelligence Assessments of Japanese Air and Naval Power, 1920-1941

Postby Admiral Piett » Fri 21 Oct 2016 22:39

Killertomato wrote:There's truth to all the stories about Japanese pilot training basically Ranger School + added sadism, then?


I haven't read up on Japanese pilot training in quite a while, so my memory is fuzzy, but yeah. It was a rather arduous training program before they dumbed it down to comical levels in the "oh sweet Jesus, we need pilots" panic as attrition began to mount up. However in terms of practical flight experience and the like, the Japanese were not above and beyond what was pretty standard. Where they made the program harder was just stupid stuff that wasn't really practical. One random example of a practice they discontinued (I can't remember exactly when for the life of me) was forcing potential IJNAS officers to go through regular IJN officer training. That was idiotic. They spent months learning how to be a naval officer before they could be considered to become an air service officer, cause understanding things like surface torpedo warfare and naval gunnery was somehow relevant to being a carrier pilot.

Due to the lack of a sufficient reserve, the Japanese went far in the other direction in a desperate attempt to keep air crew numbers up. By 1944, you had IJNAS carrier pilots entering combat with less than 200 flight hours, which was comically low. That was also the definition of flight hours, not combat training, which many late-war Japanese pilots lacked entirely. You really see that shine through in the laughable performance of Japanese air crews at the Battle of the Philippine Sea. There were lots of reports of Japanese fighter cover milling around in the back of engagements, seemingly afraid of American fighters, allowing the torpedo/dive bombers they were supposed to be escorting to get massacred. The torpedo/dive bomber crews would break discipline, drop their ordnance into the sea, and flee. Ones that did try to attack an actual target typically hit low-value ships (DDs and such) in the outermost defensive ring of USN formations, lacking the discipline to push through to the juicy CVs in the centre. Etc. Etc. You can see how, even before American skill (which, by 1944, was considerable) was factored in, Japanese aerial attacks would crumble under the weight of their own problems.

Darkmil wrote:As soon as I saw the title I knew it was yours ! It's a great thing to have your thesis exposed like this as well !


Thanks! Hahaha, it was rather intimidating when he messaged me with an offer to do that kind of talk. It is a blessing and a curse, as anyone who has done an MA thesis can attest (Madmat :lol: ). MA theses are typically far from perfect, so it is pretty daunting to have mine out there far more than most. I do look forward to doing the video chat on the air power side as, in my opinion, there are more interesting things going on. It is a case study in how preconceived notions, confirmation bias and groupthink can really screw over intelligence assessment.

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Re: Blinded by the Rising Sun? American Intelligence Assessments of Japanese Air and Naval Power, 1920-1941

Postby Mike » Sat 22 Oct 2016 05:39

Congrats on the video! I saw it pop up in my subscription feed and I was thinking you had something to do with it seeing the title. :D
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Re: Blinded by the Rising Sun? American Intelligence Assessments of Japanese Air and Naval Power, 1920-1941

Postby Admiral Piett » Sat 22 Oct 2016 06:59

Mike wrote:Congrats on the video! I saw it pop up in my subscription feed and I was thinking you had something to do with it seeing the title. :D


Hahahaha, thanks!

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Re: Blinded by the Rising Sun? American Intelligence Assessments of Japanese Air and Naval Power, 1920-1941

Postby Darkmil » Sat 22 Oct 2016 13:13

I never asked you, but what kind of study did you do ? Military history ? Is that a thing where you live ? In my country it isn't.
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Re: Blinded by the Rising Sun? American Intelligence Assessments of Japanese Air and Naval Power, 1920-1941

Postby Admiral Piett » Sun 23 Oct 2016 21:46

Darkmil wrote:I never asked you, but what kind of study did you do ? Military history ? Is that a thing where you live ? In my country it isn't.


Yes, I have a BA in history with a military/diplomatic concentration, and an MA in history (military/intelligence history). I have heard military history isn't much of a thing in Europe, particularly in Germany where there is quite a stigma. It isn't overly common in Canada either, but I happened to go to one of the few universities that has a world-class military/intelligence history and strategic studies (the political science side) concentrations thanks to some top-notch professors in the history and political science departments. We also have the Centre for Military and Strategic Studies, which has a great interdisciplinary graduate program (Master of Strategic Studies [MSS] and PhDs).

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Re: Blinded by the Rising Sun? American Intelligence Assessments of Japanese Air and Naval Power, 1920-1941

Postby Darkmil » Mon 24 Oct 2016 02:20

Admiral Piett wrote:
Darkmil wrote:I never asked you, but what kind of study did you do ? Military history ? Is that a thing where you live ? In my country it isn't.


Yes, I have a BA in history with a military/diplomatic concentration, and an MA in history (military/intelligence history). I have heard military history isn't much of a thing in Europe, particularly in Germany where there is quite a stigma. It isn't overly common in Canada either, but I happened to go to one of the few universities that has a world-class military/intelligence history and strategic studies (the political science side) concentrations thanks to some top-notch professors in the history and political science departments. We also have the Centre for Military and Strategic Studies, which has a great interdisciplinary graduate program (Master of Strategic Studies [MSS] and PhDs).

Interesting. You're right, in France I don't believe we have military history courses, or even history curriculum focused on military theme. It should be a good reason for me to go again to Canada :)
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Re: Blinded by the Rising Sun? American Intelligence Assessments of Japanese Air and Naval Power, 1920-1941

Postby Admiral Piett » Mon 24 Oct 2016 03:49

Darkmil wrote:Interesting. You're right, in France I don't believe we have military history courses, or even history curriculum focused on military theme. It should be a good reason for me to go again to Canada :)


Hahaha, you wouldn't be the first. USAF sends an officer to work under my old supervisor every year, and the Bundeswehr sends a group of officers to do some work in the Centre of Military and Strategic Studies as well.

As an aside, these animations are top notch. It is rare to find stuff that is this accurate:








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Re: Blinded by the Rising Sun? American Intelligence Assessments of Japanese Air and Naval Power, 1920-1941

Postby Mike » Mon 24 Oct 2016 20:32

Watched the video earlier this morning and I must say well done! :)
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Re: Blinded by the Rising Sun? American Intelligence Assessments of Japanese Air and Naval Power, 1920-1941

Postby Pr.shadocko » Wed 26 Oct 2016 12:20

Darkmil wrote:Interesting. You're right, in France I don't believe we have military history courses, or even history curriculum focused on military theme. It should be a good reason for me to go again to Canada :)


They actually exist in France but they are quite rare (Sorbonne, Montpellier and through a military course) .
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