#Brexit vote coming soon.

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Doinize
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Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby Doinize » Tue 21 Jun 2016 11:17

Mitchverr wrote:The UK imports massive amounts from the EU, it would be the EU whom is harmed in economic pressures and threats (which is why Germany made none, they are in fact trying to cover when other nations make threats up lol), not so much the UK, the UK can go deal with other countries unless you think other countries wont deal with the UK? Which is odd given they stand to gain much of the EU is messing it about.

You think the UK alone can compete with the EU? It is already in international competition, like any other country.
You wont be able to detatch from international competition and the competition with EU countries will probably get bigger if the UK leaves

As for the democracy vs authoritarians, its a legitimate argument to be made, the price of freedom is how much you wager its worth, in this current EU, there has been enough action that it is showing itself as moving to authoritarianism, which i personally dislike.

Are you talking about Poland, Hungary and Slovakia or tyrannical cucumber regulations?

possiblity of granting mass immigration to Turkey even though it isnt a member.

you know the talks about visa-free travel were immediatley placed on hold and continuation was tied to signifcant changes in Turkey "anti-terror" laws (so its a bit harder for the authorities to persecute whoever the fuck they want)
I doubt the EU will give up all the ground it has when negotiating with turkey also spooky scary immigration
Last edited by Doinize on Tue 21 Jun 2016 11:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby delfo » Tue 21 Jun 2016 11:44

Doinize wrote:you know the talks about visa-free travel were immediatley placed on hold and continuation was tied to signifcant changes in Turkey "anti-terror" laws (so its a bit harder for the authorities to persecute whoever the fuck they want"
I doubt the EU will give up all the ground it has when negotiating with turkey also spooky scary immigration


I don't know why this is repeatedly being brought up even after we pointed out that Turkey was denied that officially. ( so even if Erdogan is thrown out and a resonable government is elected today it's not going to happen prior to 2030 ). It's just a lie that Turkey is getting visa free travel.

I have restrictions in the UK. And I am an EU citizen who graduated from what was at the time of my admission the top university in the UK ... Can we let that lie about the travel and work just erh, die ?

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Darkmil
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Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby Darkmil » Tue 21 Jun 2016 11:45

Doinize wrote:
As for the democracy vs authoritarians, its a legitimate argument to be made, the price of freedom is how much you wager its worth, in this current EU, there has been enough action that it is showing itself as moving to authoritarianism, which i personally dislike.

Are you talking about Poland, Hungary and Slovakia or tyrannical cucumber regulations?

Well even France is not looking so good now, repressive policies are more and more current in Europe now. In France we are currently having a lot of troubles with police actions. Our president (or prime minister can't remember), recently threatened to forbid demonstrations (which is a constitutional right in France) thanks to the "état d'urgence" (literally state of emergency) which has now lasted for more than 7 month which gives increased power to the governement. Increased power that have been used to prevent photographers (journalist photographers) and union representatives to take part in demonstration.
That added to the regular actions of "casseurs" (demonstration hooligans) who the governement uses to undermine the social movement.
I might be overreacting but that seems worrying to me, nonetheless I don't see any link with the EU.
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Doinize
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Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby Doinize » Tue 21 Jun 2016 11:51

Darkmil wrote:Increased power that have been used to prevent photographers (journalist photographers) and union representatives to take part in demonstration. That added to the regular actions of "casseurs" (demonstration hooligans) who the governement uses to undermine the social movement.
I might be overreacting but that seems worrying to me, nonetheless I don't see any link with the EU.

I agree, the state of emergency is definetly used to damage the social movments, and things like infringing on due process is always dangerous as hell, but as you said, the policies in france (and belgium for that matter) are not linked to the EU.
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Darkmil
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Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby Darkmil » Tue 21 Jun 2016 12:08

Doinize wrote:I agree, the state of emergency is definetly used to damage the social movments, and things like infringing on due process is always dangerous as hell, but as you said, the policies in france (and belgium for that matter) are not linked to the EU.

Unless we come to consider this is due to a European social unrest climate, but I think it's even wider than just EU anyway...
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Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby D-M » Tue 21 Jun 2016 12:51

recently threatened to forbid demonstrations (which is a constitutional right in France)


There is no mention of a right to demonstrate in the constitution, only a right to strike. It's only a right defined in the civil code.
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Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby Object199 » Tue 21 Jun 2016 14:13

Mitchverr wrote:Never personally said much of copying the Norway deal myself.

The UK imports massive amounts from the EU, it would be the EU whom is harmed in economic pressures and threats (which is why Germany made none, they are in fact trying to cover when other nations make threats up lol), not so much the UK, the UK can go deal with other countries unless you think other countries wont deal with the UK? Which is odd given they stand to gain much of the EU is messing it about.

As for the democracy vs authoritarians, its a legitimate argument to be made, the price of freedom is how much you wager its worth, in this current EU, there has been enough action that it is showing itself as moving to authoritarianism, which i personally dislike.

The EU is the slowest growing economic bloc on the planet right now, the UK is growing faster, the EU is planning on adding more low end economies to itself, honestly i would be suprised if the EU didnt have another economic crisis in the next 5-10 years with or without the UK in it because of doing this and the refugee issues and possiblity of granting mass immigration to Turkey even though it isnt a member.


As for battle it out with the US etc, not really something i want(though we are 1 of the stronger economies out there still), i dont want nukes, i want that to be used in a way its used, not sitting there etc.


Ofc the EU would suffer also, but in the end the EU could live without the potential of full access to the british market, while you cant say the same for GB and the EU market. IIRC the avg of most studies is someting like around minus 3-4% GDP for GB. Both sides will suffer short-term.

Even the super neutral and independent Switzerland kneels before the EU regarding economic standards/rules. I dont really know much about EU/Switzerland relation, but a good swiss friend of mine, far left wing, complains always about missing democracy because they have to swallow so many EU rules they couldnt decide on. Sometimes he sounds like talking about the devil. :lol:

Freedom has it´s price, yeah, but economic growth will stay the main goal for every western government for quite some time, are you really sure you guys will hold out and never ever have to deal with EU rules again because the EU doesnt fit your high standards of democracy?

I am 95% certain you will deal with the stuff Norway has to do in the end anyway.




As for global influence/power, you read it in a militaristic way. Modern power projection is mainly done via economy politics and not military power. I am not talking about WW3, but about stuff like tolls to protect your economy. Chinese steel for dumping prices for example, the EU has the power to protect it´s steel industry with high tolls on chinese steel. Granted, I dont believe the Chinese would go full confrontation against GB if they would protect it´s steel industry, but a lot of smaller countries in the EU couldnt do the same. What if there will be someday a conflict between the GB and China and it goes full economic sanctions, please dont tell me China would suffer anything like GB. You think the USA would drop their tolls for foreign automobiles, just because little England wants them to do so. You know the term "Kleinstaaterei"? GB is doing the exact some thing, especially if the Scots will leave you someday. Little England alone in the world, because you couldnt handle muh evul EU dicatorship, while accepting those rules later anyway for the sake of having access to the EU market.




But in the end it is not my opinion that matters, still hope that the pragmatists win and not the IMO disaffected demagogues.
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Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby delfo » Tue 21 Jun 2016 21:32


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Darkmil
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Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby Darkmil » Wed 22 Jun 2016 00:00

D-M wrote:
recently threatened to forbid demonstrations (which is a constitutional right in France)


There is no mention of a right to demonstrate in the constitution, only a right to strike. It's only a right defined in the civil code.

Indeed. It's a mistake, my bad.
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Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby Bullfrog » Wed 22 Jun 2016 00:13

Does not affiliate with members who post in #MakeAmericaGreatAgain
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