#Brexit vote coming soon.

DrRansom
Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sat 14 Jan 2012 18:22
Contact:

Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby DrRansom » Sun 26 Jun 2016 02:57

You seem really angry about sending money to a fellow EU state. I mean, really really angry. But, isn't the European Union supposed to bring people together under a common flag and for a common future?

I get it, European Solidarity doesn't really exist. Each country is doing the minimum possible, Greece won't reform, out of solidarity, Germany won't let Greece default, out of solidarity, France and England subsidize their own agriculture, out of solidarity.

The EU and the Eurozone requires Greece to bend to German dictats and the Germans to send money to spendthrift Greeks. Anything else leads to the Eurozone breaking up.

If Greece does not receive money from Europe, Greece will be forced out of the Euro. If Italy doesn't receive money from Europe, Italy will be forced out of the Euro. If Spain doesn't rceive money from Europe, Spain will be forced out of the Euro. Each of those countries are uncompetitive within the Eurozone and require constant fiscal transfers as a result. You can fight that as much as possible, but it is the economic truth.

I get that Greece is a poorly run country, but Greece's bad government is all of Europe's responsibility now. This is the logic of the Eurozone.

You're really angry that Britain is leaving the European Union and you're really angry about the facts of a European Union.

delfo
Major-General
Posts: 3735
Joined: Wed 6 Aug 2014 19:57
Contact:

Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby delfo » Sun 26 Jun 2016 03:02

DrRansom wrote:You seem really angry about sending money to a fellow EU state. I mean, really really angry. But, isn't the European Union supposed to bring people together under a common flag and for a common future?

I get it, European Solidarity doesn't really exist. Each country is doing the minimum possible, Greece won't reform, out of solidarity, Germany won't let Greece default, out of solidarity, France and England subsidize their own agriculture, out of solidarity.

The EU and the Eurozone requires Greece to bend to German dictats and the Germans to send money to spendthrift Greeks. Anything else leads to the Eurozone breaking up.

If Greece does not receive money from Europe, Greece will be forced out of the Euro. If Italy doesn't receive money from Europe, Italy will be forced out of the Euro. If Spain doesn't rceive money from Europe, Spain will be forced out of the Euro. Each of those countries are uncompetitive within the Eurozone and require constant fiscal transfers as a result. You can fight that as much as possible, but it is the economic truth.

I get that Greece is a poorly run country, but Greece's bad government is all of Europe's responsibility now. This is the logic of the Eurozone.

You're really angry that Britain is leaving the European Union and you're really angry about the facts of a European Union.


No I am not angry about sending money

I don't get how you turn someone stealing money to get elected into a victim in need of pitty and then continuously change goal posts and strawman it. The greeks who were protesting against this spending were ostracized.

This is your only 5th strawmaning in a thread about Brexit which has nothing to do with Brexit.

I also don't get why you pick an example you don't seem to know anything about and stick with it.

If Puerto Rico doesn't recieve money from the Senate it will be forced out of the US oh wait that happened and it's yet to be forced out... Here's the kicker, you don't get that the US government has a direct relationship with the Fed. You think Germany can print money ? The ECB controls the fiscal policy of the Eurozone members. Can the ECB control the fiscal policy of Poland though ? No. And it doesn't it gives suggestions and the Polish central bank seems to ignore them.

Bad logic doesn't work when you try to make strawman arguments. I am really angry? No, I am moderetly miffed that you're doing disruptive arguments and whataboutisms I am used to seeing on /r/russia...

What was it NK would have nuclear capability... Game changer... ROK and China start a free currency trade last week. No comment. See I can switch topics too and mine are actually bullet proof on this matter it seems.

Do I have to run a course for several people on when I am angry so I don't get this oh no he angry school yard routine. Do I have to handle this like a schoolyard excercise for a bunch of my first graders? I mean there seems to be a market and at least you'd know if you're getting warm.

User avatar
tgwEcho
Sergeant Major of the Army
Posts: 350
Joined: Tue 7 May 2013 00:38
Location: CA, USA
Contact:

Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby tgwEcho » Sun 26 Jun 2016 05:28

I think many Americans, myself included, are curious to see how Brexit will affect Scottish independence and Irish reunification efforts. I think it's much harder for London to make its case for Remain, at least in these local reference frames, after the regional distribution of voting indicates a non-trivial desire for EU membership in these areas.

While I'm definitely in favor of a stable and healthy UK, I think a new, smaller England deserves a bit of its own medicine in this regard.
Image

User avatar
Vulcan 607
Major-General
Posts: 3911
Joined: Mon 31 Mar 2014 20:40
Location: Malton
Contact:

Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby Vulcan 607 » Sun 26 Jun 2016 09:20

tgwEcho wrote:I think many Americans, myself included, are curious to see how Brexit will affect Scottish independence and Irish reunification efforts. I think it's much harder for London to make its case for Remain, at least in these local reference frames, after the regional distribution of voting indicates a non-trivial desire for EU membership in these areas.

While I'm definitely in favor of a stable and healthy UK, I think a new, smaller England deserves a bit of its own medicine in this regard.


Doubt it will the Irish are as divided as ever, and Scotland has being told it will have to reapply. The only thing I can say is wait and see.

User avatar
Frencho
Lieutenant
Posts: 1245
Joined: Thu 13 Aug 2015 19:40
Contact:

Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby Frencho » Sun 26 Jun 2016 13:08

Dr Random.

You came out of the blue and engaged us on things we did not say, even alluded to. The points you raised are very much valid but not on topic (Brexit), and are pretty much in accordance to my own broad EU views.

No one from the leave camp here has brought any rational, valid arguments for seceding from the EU.

Now I won't discuss Greece too much because frankly I was a teenager when all this happened and never followed it closely nor had any thorough understanding on what was going one and how it happened. Delfo has first hand experience on the Greek case and was probably in his 20s when the crisis happened.

So you seem to want more EU Integration, you're speaking of federalism and such.
Now how can you achieve that with two big anchors weighing the EU down?!
I was a Grexit supporter a year ago, I was a Brexit supporter this year.
As these two where exploiting the European Union for their own selfish and small minded interests.

Look at it, London’s approach to Europe scuttled any momentum toward federalism, turning a project that aspired to strong political union into nothing more than an ever-enlarging free market.

The United Kingdom was not alone in exploiting the situation, and this is where the case for Brexit echoes last year’s case for Grexit. Greece, an underdeveloped country that joined the EU in 1981, has used the union foremost as a source of foreign aid and, when the euro was adopted, of almost free loans guaranteed by the union’s richer members. It was a flagrant abuse of the spirit of the union, but Greece was economically marginal. Its profligacy went unremarked until the global economic meltdown that began in 2007.

Now we both agree on the need for stronger European Integration. You just need a hefty dose of realism, we needed to let go the British and either let the Greeks leave or discipline them if they stayed. Stop playing the cruel German zero-sum argument, the Greeks fucked up and have to change their ways.

I also take issue with the points you raised are on the German stance and Merkel. There's this impression that Merkel is an all-mighty Fuhrer who owns the EU. It couldn't be further from the truth.

Now let's look at the political EU landscape at this very moment to illustrate that point.

Merkel did not believe in a "Leave" win until the very last minute.
She couldn't, because a Brexit is bad, bad news for her. Cameron was an useful ally.
Her Foreign Minister, did not believe in the Brexit either and thus did not counsel her properly.
Because he is weirdly pro-Russian and the Sterling Pound plummeting is horrible news for his buddies the Putin Cronies and Oligarchs whom have their rainy day funds in £. Losing 10% of their value overnight is bad news for them.

So Merkel was caught off guard, she did not prepare not foresee this. Hence her declaration that she will not hear of "quick and simple solutions that further divide Europe." Interpret this as "shit I need to bide for more time to get my shit together" and as a no to strengthening of the euro zone.

Well tough luck for her as the other 5 founding countries of the EU are pushing for a prompt Brexit and they will probably get their way.

Mr. Brexit has been appointed, The EU called on Saturday the Belgian diplomat Didier Seeuws to be the head of the "Brexit Task Force". Plus a huge team of lawyers is spending the entire weekend looking for loopholes in the article 50 in case the Brexiters chicken shit themselves are refuse to call article 50 Tuesday 28th and Wednesday 29th.

Merkel has considerable sway when she can rally others to her camp. But now she is very isolated, and Merkel just like Cameron see the EU as a large free-market and want to keep it that way. Because they are conservatives and yes, Merkel and Schäuble reek of Deutschland über alles.

But that does not mean they can impose anything if they are outnumbered. The Stronger EU Integration camp was still larger before Brexit now it's reinvigorated and dominant.

Juncker and Schultz don't get along with Merkel. As they are two strong supporters of further integration of the European Union.
Hollande has diverging views on the future for the EU, and beat her to courting Matteo Renzi (Italian PM). Who is now on the Stronger EU Integration camp.
The S&Ds are stronger than EPP. EU parliament is centre left leaning at the moment, thus Stronger EU Integration camp.

The meeting Merkel is having with Donald Tusk is an informal one by the way.
Furthermore she is politically weakened due to being under a coalition government.

Merkel has sway, yet no one to sway.

Our German friends on this forum can go more in depth on this too.

Finally take note that both Hollande and Merkel are gone next year. They won' win any elections. Which is good as both are politically weakened and we need new leaders to make the Franco-German twin engine run full steam ahead in these troubled Brexit waters, and with Merkel and Hollande it's clogged.

Again thanks Brexiters for leaving and starting this, it's a great opportunity for the EU and will bring much needed reform and integration.

delfo
Major-General
Posts: 3735
Joined: Wed 6 Aug 2014 19:57
Contact:

Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby delfo » Sun 26 Jun 2016 13:30

https://next.ft.com/content/1d534692-3a ... z4Cd9rUfP1

The flight of the fund managers... erh I mean concords?


The lack of any political lead in the UK post Brexit with people like Gove, Nigel, Corbyn, Cameron, Osborne, Hannan and Johnson hiding away and not providing any sense of stability is pushing this from a problem to a full blown crisis. The panic is now building up above Friday's levels because there doesn't seem to be anyone at the helm in the UK. Or a plan.

The FT is considering it to now be a disaster unfolding faster than the Lehman collapse. Merely because of this.

User avatar
REDDQ
General
Posts: 6906
Joined: Thu 12 Apr 2012 03:13
Location: przy stole.
Contact:

Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby REDDQ » Sun 26 Jun 2016 15:02

Frencho wrote:Mr. Brexit has been appointed, The EU called on Saturday the Belgian diplomat Didier Seeuws to be the head of the "Brexit Task Force". Plus a huge team of lawyers is spending the entire weekend looking for loopholes in the article 50 in case the Brexiters chicken shit themselves are refuse to call article 50 Tuesday 28th and Wednesday 29th.


And we can't have that. If UK was to stay now it would damage Brits' opinion about EU (ie. enforce the image of undemocratic being) even more and cause even further rift between them and their politicians (ie. they do it for monies) :P

delfo
Major-General
Posts: 3735
Joined: Wed 6 Aug 2014 19:57
Contact:

Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby delfo » Sun 26 Jun 2016 15:06

REDDQ wrote:
Frencho wrote:Mr. Brexit has been appointed, The EU called on Saturday the Belgian diplomat Didier Seeuws to be the head of the "Brexit Task Force". Plus a huge team of lawyers is spending the entire weekend looking for loopholes in the article 50 in case the Brexiters chicken shit themselves are refuse to call article 50 Tuesday 28th and Wednesday 29th.


And we can't have that. If UK was to stay now it would damage Brits' opinion about EU (ie. enforce the image of undemocratic being) even more and cause even further rift between them and their politicians (ie. they do it for monies) :P


Never mind that, in the short term Corbyn's decision not to resign yesterday is making matters worse. The shadow cabinet effectively resigned in protest. Labour in parliament is collapsing and not a single leader from London is showing any signs to re-assure that stability will be maintaind.

Who is running Boaty McBoatface right now ?

User avatar
Mitchverr
More than 10 000 messages. Soldier you are the leader of all armies!
Posts: 10646
Joined: Sat 24 Mar 2012 18:08
Contact:

Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby Mitchverr » Sun 26 Jun 2016 15:09

delfo wrote:Who is running Boaty McBoatface right now ?


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 03186.html

Stand a high chance of jumping into the gap.
Image

delfo
Major-General
Posts: 3735
Joined: Wed 6 Aug 2014 19:57
Contact:

Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby delfo » Sun 26 Jun 2016 15:14

Mitchverr wrote:
delfo wrote:Who is running Boaty McBoatface right now ?


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 03186.html

Stand a high chance of jumping into the gap.


But untill then who's at the helm ? The Guardian and The Telegraph's editorial staff with the FT and the Economist doubling as chancelor and governor of the BoE ?

Return to “Off-Topic”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests