#Brexit vote coming soon.

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Aubustou
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Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby Aubustou » Wed 1 Jun 2016 11:58

Even French people don't care about French government. Why would brits be afraid of them?
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Mitchverr
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Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby Mitchverr » Wed 1 Jun 2016 13:25

LoneRifle wrote:That's rich.

So you are basically afraid the US worker and product is better than the French one eh?

The Brexit vote is silly. If Europe wants to become more integrated then they need to stay in. If they go out, it goes back to the individualistic nation states having petty squabbles over any and everything.


No, we are afraid of US companies using this as a way to force a reduction in quality control, theres a reason many US foods are banned in their current state in the EU for example and have a completely different makeup in the EU, this would remove a good chunk of those barriers that protect people. Dont get me wrong, much of the over-regulation is what i dislike on the EU, but much of it is important to the safety of employees and the customer.

Thats just food btw, this will hit across the board from food to drugs, speaking of, our government has addmitted to US papers that the NHS is on the table for privatisation under TTIP to american companies, this is a thing the tories have tried to do for decades, TTIP will be the weapon they need, i would rather they did not have it.

As for integration, i wouldnt mind it if it was done in a better system, the current EU system is anti democratic, if your country decided that 50% of the laws passed would never even go to the elected officials to vote on and that your elected government can no longer propose or recind law, what would your states do?

Pr.shadocko wrote:@Mitchver: People of UK will choose freely (i hope) their path but saying that French governement threathen them is forgetting the not-so-subtle message Obama have send last time he come to Europe.


Campaign fear is in full swing, there is no freely about it, we are getting the same treatment as the Danes keep getting of it raining cats if we leave, our willies will fall off etc kind of claims of insanity. Obama is out soon anyway, if he does anything to damage trade and risk jobs or money, he will get blasted for it when the next president comes in, blames him then fixes it, its an easy little quick victory for the next president to make in all honesty, so i dont see why he makes his threats over it, the reason he is doing so is that the UK will be able to bail on TTIP if they bail on the EU i believe.

orcbuster wrote:Isn't polling showing a pretty clear favour for staying?

https://ig.ft.com/sites/brexit-polling/

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Current overall polling results in 45--43 for staying right now if taken in the larger context i believe(at least according to news today on tv), its very close, this closeness is 1 of the big pushers on the EU army conspiracy also, of it being tabled for the day after the vote as to not push that couple % that will change their vote if an EU army was on the table.

Aubustou wrote:Even French people don't care about French government. Why would brits be afraid of them?


There isnt a fear of them, just a general dislike that they threaten to basically not control their side of the border if we do something they dont like which pushes back how well our countries have been getting on for literally no reason.
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Killertomato
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Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby Killertomato » Wed 1 Jun 2016 13:32

It amuses me that so many support this no matter what every economist/scientist/etc says about it.

I guess you guys need your own Trump.
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Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby Mitchverr » Wed 1 Jun 2016 13:35

Killertomato wrote:It amuses me that so many support this no matter what every economist/scientist/etc says about it.

I guess you guys need your own Trump.


Actually many economists suggest either way, its just our media keeps spouting bs about that, its closer to 50/50 when it comes to economists then what either side claim of like 9/10 support leaving or support staying, its actually pretty awful in that reguard, theres so much propaganda now that its hard to find the truth of it.

Not to mention that what the anti leavers say is what they said to the Danes every time they voted to not join, with the Danish economy proving them wrong every time.... lol.


Most likely the economy will suffer a few % for the next 5-7 years, 5 more likely, with it then doing better after the country has readjusted and formed new tariff free trade agreements with people when you go to the more neutral economists.

But the question is, do you take a 5% hit to the economy for 5 years, or do you let an anti democratic system keep control? Inb4 change from inside, we been trying that since the EU became a political thing and it hasnt happened.
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Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby Fade2Gray » Wed 1 Jun 2016 14:30

Killertomato wrote:It amuses me that so many support this no matter what every economist/scientist/etc says about it.

I guess you guys need your own Trump.


As already stated, there is a split on what they say. As jaded as I am about doomsayers, I can't take them too seriously.
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Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby Thracetw (de) » Wed 1 Jun 2016 17:23

Krauts for brexit

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Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby LoneRifle » Wed 1 Jun 2016 17:49

Mitchverr wrote:
LoneRifle wrote:That's rich.

So you are basically afraid the US worker and product is better than the French one eh?

The Brexit vote is silly. If Europe wants to become more integrated then they need to stay in. If they go out, it goes back to the individualistic nation states having petty squabbles over any and everything.


No, we are afraid of US companies using this as a way to force a reduction in quality control, theres a reason many US foods are banned in their current state in the EU for example and have a completely different makeup in the EU, this would remove a good chunk of those barriers that protect people. Dont get me wrong, much of the over-regulation is what i dislike on the EU, but much of it is important to the safety of employees and the customer.

Thats just food btw, this will hit across the board from food to drugs, speaking of, our government has addmitted to US papers that the NHS is on the table for privatisation under TTIP to american companies, this is a thing the tories have tried to do for decades, TTIP will be the weapon they need, i would rather they did not have it.

As for integration, i wouldnt mind it if it was done in a better system, the current EU system is anti democratic, if your country decided that 50% of the laws passed would never even go to the elected officials to vote on and that your elected government can no longer propose or recind law, what would your states do?


I'll be honest, I posted because I saw some drivel about 1% technocrats stealing people's money as an argument against free trade.

I can get the idea that different standards between countries are at stake and it's a real sticking point. Although I find it silly that a bunch of countries and people with rather... Diverse standards on drug usage have such a hard on against American farming practices. To me the safety argument rings just a bit hollow compared to farming groups concerns that their bottom line will be at risk against American agricultural exports. Which it clearly will be unless they can adapt so it's no shocker they are fighting tooth and nail against the agreement.

As for nationalized healthcare, isn't the UK pushing for an exclusion for its healthcare in the agreement? As I understood it, every single special interest group with clout is trying to get exclusions.

I'm not quite as familiar with EU government structure, but the USA shucked the idea of states being truly independent from the federal government long ago, so it's hard to look at it the same way.

There are bound to be serious growing pains if you want real integration. I mean, the interests of the state of Maine are completely opposite probably from say Arizona. But we muddle through and make it work.

In my personally biased opinion, you should have gone with a house and senate instead of house and council, but kinda late for that now methinks.

I remember the lead up to the Scottish independence vote. I think UK stays in by a comfortable margin.
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Mitchverr
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Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby Mitchverr » Wed 1 Jun 2016 18:00

LoneRifle wrote:As for nationalized healthcare, isn't the UK pushing for an exclusion for its healthcare in the agreement? As I understood it, every single special interest group with clout is trying to get exclusions.

I'm not quite as familiar with EU government structure, but the USA shucked the idea of states being truly independent from the federal government long ago, so it's hard to look at it the same way.

There are bound to be serious growing pains if you want real integration. I mean, the interests of the state of Maine are completely opposite probably from say Arizona. But we muddle through and make it work.

In my personally biased opinion, you should have gone with a house and senate instead of house and council, but kinda late for that now methinks.

I remember the lead up to the Scottish independence vote. I think UK stays in by a comfortable margin.


The first bit is fair enough reply, so i have nothing to reply to it with so removed it.

For the healthcare and special interests, the tory government has a habit of saying 1 thing while doing the exact opposite in the situation, they said they would protect peoples privacy while introducing the snooping bill, kick government out of peoples bedrooms while banning porn and protect british steel while making agreements for chinese steel.... Left hand doesnt know what right hand is doing deal sadly so i wont take them at their word when they consistantly have lied about the NHS in the past when dealing with it, they might say they will push for it, but i would not be suprised if they come back saying "sorry there was nothing we could do" on the other side.


I would be heavily in favour of the EU if it had a more US style government system (without the whole money in politics thing ofcourse) actually, i dislike having a Queen and house of lords but i rather these people because at least they are still under some form of control in the UK over nameless and faceless people in the EU government system.

Its getting very fishy in the vote however, the stay number are going down steadily and people remember when the lisbon treaty was put to the Irish twice, they are looking for underhanded tactics like the as said before elimination of people from voting and the new issue with signatures not being accepted, if they continue to make suspect moves like this for making votes then it could drift to leaving as people start to be upset that the democratic process is being abused.
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Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby orcbuster » Wed 1 Jun 2016 18:10

I've looked at the UK electoral system. Abusable does not do it justice.
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Re: #Brexit vote coming soon.

Postby Mitchverr » Wed 1 Jun 2016 18:21

orcbuster wrote:I've looked at the UK electoral system. Abusable does not do it justice.


And i want reform in mine too, funny enough its something that the parties claimed they would do.... then didnt..... Its 1 of the reasons i still vote lib dem, i want that god damn reform in but i know it wont happen, its what makes me want to slap the damn SNP leader for his "scotland has no say" when his party got 4.7% of votes and 56 seats while UKIP and Lib dems together got 20% of the vote and 9 seats with the lib dems getting 8 of them while only 7.9% of the vote.

I dont mind the way MEPs are chosen, i would like that for MPs to be honest for a much more democratic way of electing people, but my issue then is what power MEPs actually have(or dont have in this case) in the EU system.

Though we do have prime minister questions ofcourse, which is a pretty unique system that is nice.
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