[Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

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Eukie
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Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby Eukie » Sat 4 Feb 2017 11:08

FrangibleCover wrote:A shame. However I've looked through your new proposal and a bit of Google-Fu tells me that the M4A1 Halftrack was an 81mm mortar carrier. I suspect it was one of your sources confusing the designation for the transport variant but if the M4A1 is a real Austrian-operated bit of kit then that's a huge boon for motorised spec and uniqueness.


I discovered it here. It's Swiss, but I've not been able to find anything else about it.

FrangibleCover wrote:Also I thought we were going for Luftlandesoldaten. Was it changed due to putting them in motorised spec as well? That's fair enough.


Part of it is that I simply don't think "Luftlandesoldaten" sounds cool enough, the second is that the Luftlandesoldaten and Gebirgsjäger in the proposal ended up looking identical, so I folded them into one.

FrangibleCover wrote:What are Jagdkommando '90 for? They seem similar but inferior to their older cousins. Perhaps giving the Jagdkommando '80 the FAL and the '90 either the AUG/AUG HBAR or the TMP/AUG HBAR would be nice, making one squad the better for open or forested areas and the other better in towns.


Basically, I realized I'd written them up to be using the MP88 so I made a C-CAT version with the AUG without checking to see if there was any reason to actually keep the A-CAT version.

FrangibleCover wrote:A stylistic thing but why are the '90s infantry separated from the '80s infantry and the '90s support teams left intermixed?


I consider 90's infantry - that is, units that already exist, but with modernized weapons and "90" tacked onto their names, a distinct category from units that just aren't available until after 1990.

FrangibleCover wrote:I didn't realise the SK-105s were that good, they could be quite nasty to face.


Very Good optics recon tank-destroyer with a ROF of 12 is pretty neat. A Very Good optics recon tank-destroyer with an autoloaded M68 is also pretty neat!

FrangibleCover wrote:If the Pinzgauers are switched and the 712 gets the machine gun then the 710 can use the model that's already in game. Might as well, they can both hold enough troops.


That was the original idea, but I changed it around so that the HMMWV-alike was the 4x4 and the truck transport was the 6x6. I figured it might make it easier to sell Eugen on the idea that Austria and Switzerland should get to use truck transports.

FrangibleCover wrote:In the absence of anything much else to do with it how about turning the F-18D into a heavy bomber to further emphasise NCE's town/forest fighting focus? The Saab 105 remains totally useless.


I think I was considering to make the F/A-18D into a multipurpose bomber akin to the Norwegian F-16, to complement the C's air superiority purpose, but I left the weapon slot blank because I couldn't think of what kind of bomb to give it. As for the Saab 105Ö, Sweden has one, and once upon a time it was apparently not unless or something?

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Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby FrangibleCover » Sat 4 Feb 2017 13:07

Eukie wrote:
FrangibleCover wrote:A shame. However I've looked through your new proposal and a bit of Google-Fu tells me that the M4A1 Halftrack was an 81mm mortar carrier. I suspect it was one of your sources confusing the designation for the transport variant but if the M4A1 is a real Austrian-operated bit of kit then that's a huge boon for motorised spec and uniqueness.

I discovered it here. It's Swiss, but I've not been able to find anything else about it.

The weight they quote indicates that it's on an M2 Half-track Car chassis but the wooden box on the back appears to be aftermarket, I can't see it anywhere else. That is the right chassis for an M4A1 so I guess it could be but short of someone nipping down to Full-Reuenthal and checking I think we have to assume it's a mistaken designation.

FrangibleCover wrote:Also I thought we were going for Luftlandesoldaten. Was it changed due to putting them in motorised spec as well? That's fair enough.

Part of it is that I simply don't think "Luftlandesoldaten" sounds cool enough, the second is that the Luftlandesoldaten and Gebirgsjäger in the proposal ended up looking identical, so I folded them into one.

There's only room for one and Gebirgsjäger makes most sense if they're going to be in the motorised deck because Gebirgsjäger can come in helicopters but Luftlandesoldaten sounds pretty silly when they're not Luftlande-ing.

FrangibleCover wrote:What are Jagdkommando '90 for? They seem similar but inferior to their older cousins. Perhaps giving the Jagdkommando '80 the FAL and the '90 either the AUG/AUG HBAR or the TMP/AUG HBAR would be nice, making one squad the better for open or forested areas and the other better in towns.

Basically, I realized I'd written them up to be using the MP88 so I made a C-CAT version with the AUG without checking to see if there was any reason to actually keep the A-CAT version.

If we're only keeping one set of Jagdkommando I think giving them the SMGs a good option just so that we're not looking at a full lineup of AUG-CG-MG3 infantry. Also you ninja'd me by editing the document while I was typing.

FrangibleCover wrote:If the Pinzgauers are switched and the 712 gets the machine gun then the 710 can use the model that's already in game. Might as well, they can both hold enough troops.

That was the original idea, but I changed it around so that the HMMWV-alike was the 4x4 and the truck transport was the 6x6. I figured it might make it easier to sell Eugen on the idea that Austria and Switzerland should get to use truck transports.

Six of one, half-a-dozen of the other. Eugen likes free models and the Stalwart/Stolly demonstrates that they're okay with 6x6 trucks as transports so long as they're horribly expensive. Keep it as you have it and then when you're consulted about adding NCE to the game point out that you could switch them around :D.

FrangibleCover wrote:In the absence of anything much else to do with it how about turning the F-18D into a heavy bomber to further emphasise NCE's town/forest fighting focus? The Saab 105 remains totally useless.

I think I was considering to make the F/A-18D into a multipurpose bomber akin to the Norwegian F-16, to complement the C's air superiority purpose, but I left the weapon slot blank because I couldn't think of what kind of bomb to give it. As for the Saab 105Ö, Sweden has one, and once upon a time it was apparently not unless or something?

Given that Switzerland is miniscule I think that a loadout with the M61A1, 4x Mk84 and 2x AIM-9P or AIM-120 is good, they're not going to need the extra fuel tanks even on the Hornet's infamously short legs.

The Swedish SK-60 was not useless in Late ALB. It had the same Rb-05 loadout as now but it missed less. In terms of problems with the Austrian one the Rb-05 is an unexported missile that was only ever fitted to Swedish SK-60s for testing (technically prototype) and has now been nerfed into oblivion. The 105Ö can also carry a handful of small iron bombs, 6x 145mm rockets, 12x 135mm rockets, 4x ADEN pods or I think some napalm. I don't know how much of that Austria had but I don't see any of those loadouts being a better choice than the equivalent Hunter.

You're editing this thing faster than I can reread it so I'm sorry if any of this stuff has been covered already. I'm loving the STOW Defender concept though, do you think you could wedge the HeliTOW system into a Puma better than into an Alouette?
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Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby Eukie » Sat 4 Feb 2017 13:43

FrangibleCover wrote:The Swedish SK-60 was not useless in Late ALB. It had the same Rb-05 loadout as now but it missed less. In terms of problems with the Austrian one the Rb-05 is an unexported missile that was only ever fitted to Swedish SK-60s for testing (technically prototype) and has now been nerfed into oblivion. The 105Ö can also carry a handful of small iron bombs, 6x 145mm rockets, 12x 135mm rockets, 4x ADEN pods or I think some napalm. I don't know how much of that Austria had but I don't see any of those loadouts being a better choice than the equivalent Hunter.


I was thinking of giving it the early ALB loadout with 12x 135mm rockets.

FrangibleCover wrote:You're editing this thing faster than I can reread it so I'm sorry if any of this stuff has been covered already. I'm loving the STOW Defender concept though, do you think you could wedge the HeliTOW system into a Puma better than into an Alouette?


It's been done (with Malyutkas and Spike ERs), but in all other respects the STOW Defender is a total unicorn,

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Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby Eukie » Sat 4 Feb 2017 17:19

The Jägerbattalione that were fully motorized were known as "Feldjägerbattalione". I have accordingly named the Ö-Jager "Feldjäger". In trying to find whether there was any evidence that Switzerland had ever mounted their STOWs in Pinzgauers or Puch G's, I learned that Austria had mounted the RBS-56 on Puch Gs, which makes for a neat ATGM jeep.

I also learned that, in 1987, Austria upgraded their M60A1 and M60A3 arsenal with new engines, thermal sleeves, improved FCSes with better crosswind sensors, and improved passive thermal sights. These were named "M60A3Ö". I've hence added two new Austrian tanks; an M60A1Ö that's an M60A1 with these upgrades, and an M60A3Ö that is an M60A1 with these upgrades. The difference would only be a few points of armour, so the the M60A1Ö could be dropped.

Also, can someone ID this Swiss flamethrower?

e: It appears that the "Grenadiere" as recon spec-ops types operating as part of Swiss spec-ops command is something of an Armee XXI-thing. More historically accurate would perhaps be to have them as "Gebirgsgrenadiere", and not in the recon role. Though that robs Switzerland and NCE of that neat Shock Recon unit the Grenadiere was...

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Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby Baaslerbeppi » Sat 4 Feb 2017 19:57

Eukie wrote:Also, can someone ID this Swiss flamethrower?

Flammenwerfer 42/55

Eukie wrote:It appears that the "Grenadiere" as recon spec-ops types operating as part of Swiss spec-ops command is something of an Armee XXI-thing.

Aufklärungssoldat will do

I haven't had the chance to look at the xls from a proper computer yet, so I'm not sure if some of the lines/columns re- arranged for me somehow. but the LOG tab says Austria twice(?)
The G13 was no prototype but the SNORA would definitely be.
The M113 "Minenwerfpanzer" (not ...werfen) had no 8,1cm version. You could put it on a PUCH tough (like the Dutch)
The Aufklärungssoldaten used the Puch as transports in the 90s and were equipped with a WBG (Wärmebildgerät - thermal image device) so both the Puch and the Aufkl Sdt should have exceptional optics. So the Eagle IV. The Eagle also has a Mg 51.

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Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby Eukie » Sat 4 Feb 2017 21:58

Baaslerbeppi wrote:Flammenwerfer 42/55


Thanks!

Baaslerbeppi wrote:Aufklärungssoldat will do


Well, I'm sure it's possible to find some variation upon "Aüfklarer" for Switzerland too. The real issue is more that as it stands, NCE has:

[Jadgkampf], Milita Recon with Shock loadout, for flavour
Aüfklarer, Line Recon
Grenadier, Shock Recon
Fallschirmgrenadier, Elite Recon (standard)
Kampftaucher, Elite Recon (sniper)

A very well-rounded Recon tab. Ideally, there'd be some Swiss unit that could replace the ahistorical Greandier as Shock Recon. Or an Austrian one, and shuffle the Aüfklarer over to Switzerland.

Baaslerbeppi wrote:The M113 "Minenwerfpanzer" (not ...werfen) had no 8,1cm version. You could put it on a PUCH tough (like the Dutch)


Ah, I saw a few references to it on Wikipedia and the alike, so I added it. I don't think it would hurt Switzerland all that much not to have 81 mm mortars thought?

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Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby FrangibleCover » Sat 4 Feb 2017 23:30

Eukie wrote:
FrangibleCover wrote:The Swedish SK-60 was not useless in Late ALB. It had the same Rb-05 loadout as now but it missed less. In terms of problems with the Austrian one the Rb-05 is an unexported missile that was only ever fitted to Swedish SK-60s for testing (technically prototype) and has now been nerfed into oblivion. The 105Ö can also carry a handful of small iron bombs, 6x 145mm rockets, 12x 135mm rockets, 4x ADEN pods or I think some napalm. I don't know how much of that Austria had but I don't see any of those loadouts being a better choice than the equivalent Hunter.

I was thinking of giving it the early ALB loadout with 12x 135mm rockets.

Could do, I've had a bit of a look for the m/49 145mm rockets and it seems like there's not much information out there but they MAY have been HEAT or in some other way armour-piercing. Now, I know that HEAT rockets are a popular suggestion and that they've been found by modding to be ridiculously good in quantity but with only 6 the 105Ö isn't going to be derping many superheavies. 145mm is quite a wide warhead even for a rocket that's presumably from 1949 (So's the Carl Gustav mind) so the AP should be okay, Command helpfully rates penetration as somewhere between 200mm and 500mm. Still, it's a system that gives Austria a serious bit of airborne punch. Alternatively, if Eugen announce one more patch and no more DLC, give it to the Swedes and turn the AJ 37 into a bomber.

I've been thinking about the 35Ö and I'm a little concerned. If it's put at anything like a fair price/availability for its stats won't it just be spammed to soak missiles for the other units in the deck? 10% ECM and pretty quick for not a lot of points at all.

Eukie wrote:The difference would only be a few points of armour, so the the M60A1Ö could be dropped.

Nah, Austria is terrible enough without excluding units that would require little-to-no further modelling merely because they're a little redundant. Without it they are actually unable to fill every tank slot in an Armoured deck.

Also, can someone ID this Swiss flamethrower?

That guy is the correct choice for the Genietrupp unit card. Hans the sociopathic flammenwerfersoldat, who torches stuffed animals on his days off :lol:.

Baaslerbeppi wrote:The G13 was no prototype but the SNORA would definitely be.

The G13 isn't a prototype, it just exited service prior to 1980 and therefore wasn't included. I could swear there was a post somewhere in here claiming that the SPz 63 SNORA entered service but I can't find it again.

The M113 "Minenwerfpanzer" (not ...werfen) had no 8,1cm version. You could put it on a PUCH tough (like the Dutch)

If you have a source or a picture or anything for that that'd be superb, that's NCE's missing link in the Motorised deck.

The Aufklärungssoldaten used the Puch as transports in the 90s and were equipped with a WBG (Wärmebildgerät - thermal image device) so both the Puch and the Aufkl Sdt should have exceptional optics. So the Eagle IV. The Eagle also has a Mg 51.

I think an Exceptional optics recon transport is perhaps too much and infantry get Very Good optics regardless of equipment set but every coalition gets Exceptional Optics so the Eagle WBG sounds like the correct thing to do with the chassis.

Eukie wrote:
Baaslerbeppi wrote:Aufklärungssoldat will do

Well, I'm sure it's possible to find some variation upon "Aüfklarer" for Switzerland too. The real issue is more that as it stands, NCE has:

[Jadgkampf], Milita Recon with Shock loadout, for flavour
Aüfklarer, Line Recon
Grenadier, Shock Recon
Fallschirmgrenadier, Elite Recon (standard)
Kampftaucher, Elite Recon (sniper)

A very well-rounded Recon tab. Ideally, there'd be some Swiss unit that could replace the ahistorical Greandier as Shock Recon. Or an Austrian one, and shuffle the Aüfklarer over to Switzerland.

Austrian Garde or Luftlande in the recon tab then? I don't like that solution much, it's yet another 100% identical squad for Austria. If there's no new name then it's easiest to just leave the Grenadiere where they are I think, it's not that there's no precedent for Shock recon squads that are just normal infantry farmed out to the recon tab.
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Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby Eukie » Sun 5 Feb 2017 00:01

FrangibleCover wrote:Austrian Garde or Luftlande in the recon tab then? I don't like that solution much, it's yet another 100% identical squad for Austria. If there's no new name then it's easiest to just leave the Grenadiere where they are I think, it's not that there's no precedent for Shock recon squads that are just normal infantry farmed out to the recon tab.


Well, the Grenadiere did do some recon so they can stay I guess.

Now, for some good news! This helpful website and my copy of Compendium of Modern Firearms reveals to me that Switzerland had the Steyr AUG LSW/HBAR in timeframe under the name "lMG 77" - which suggests that not only is it in timeframe, it's C-CAT. And with the Steyr AUG being built around the multiple barrel concept, as far as I can tell the Steyr AUG carbine variant was also C-CAT.

So Jagdkommando are now armed with carbines and 5.56 NATO light machine guns. I've never been good at keeping on top of the meta, but I believe that's a combination that's generally regarded as incredibly good, right?

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Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby FrangibleCover » Sun 5 Feb 2017 00:13

Eukie wrote:
FrangibleCover wrote:Austrian Garde or Luftlande in the recon tab then? I don't like that solution much, it's yet another 100% identical squad for Austria. If there's no new name then it's easiest to just leave the Grenadiere where they are I think, it's not that there's no precedent for Shock recon squads that are just normal infantry farmed out to the recon tab.


Well, the Grenadiere did do some recon so they can stay I guess.

Now, for some good news! This helpful website and my copy of Compendium of Modern Firearms reveals to me that Switzerland had the Steyr AUG LSW/HBAR in timeframe under the name "lMG 77" - which suggests that not only is it in timeframe, it's C-CAT. And with the Steyr AUG being built around the multiple barrel concept, as far as I can tell the Steyr AUG carbine variant was also C-CAT.

So Jagdkommando are now armed with carbines and 5.56 NATO light machine guns. I've never been good at keeping on top of the meta, but I believe that's a combination that's generally regarded as incredibly good, right?

That's a very cool change, different but distinctly Austrian. I've no idea what's going on in the meta either but I'm pretty sure that the 5.56 MGs that are uniformly good are the box-fed ones. viewtopic.php?p=1001755#p1001755 If this table is still true then the magazine fed ones are widely scattered: Stoner at Excellent, Colt LMG at Very Good, Galil ARM at Good but the L86 (most directly comparable but only available on line inf) is Bad. The lMG 77 would have to be on the high end to be a better pick than the MG3 but considering that it's only going to be used on one unit the stats can be adjusted as needed to make Jagdkommando the correct amount of good.
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Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby Eukie » Sun 5 Feb 2017 01:05

FrangibleCover wrote:That's a very cool change, different but distinctly Austrian. I've no idea what's going on in the meta either but I'm pretty sure that the 5.56 MGs that are uniformly good are the box-fed ones. viewtopic.php?p=1001755#p1001755 If this table is still true then the magazine fed ones are widely scattered: Stoner at Excellent, Colt LMG at Very Good, Galil ARM at Good but the L86 (most directly comparable but only available on line inf) is Bad. The lMG 77 would have to be on the high end to be a better pick than the MG3 but considering that it's only going to be used on one unit the stats can be adjusted as needed to make Jagdkommando the correct amount of good.


I could always give them the MG3 back if they need it. Main point is, if Jagdkommando would be better with the AUG LSW, they can get the AUG LSW.

On the subject of infantry, I settled for "Grenadiere" for Switzerland's Shock Light Infantry; that covers all the different kind of Grenadiere they had running around during the Cold War and satisfies those people who want to use their Grenadiere as shock troops to lead an attack in true Swiss style. For Shock Recon I simply named the unit "Grenadieraüfklarer", a name inspired by the (Armee XXI) Grenadier-Aüfklarer Kompanie. Hence, the Swiss Grenadiers are represented by three units; Grenadiere, Grenadieraüfklarer, and Fallschirmgrenadiere.

I also added the 4K 7FA FSCV 90 to Austria's VEH tab. Austria is so anemic I think they deserve some fun units. I considered adding it to the REC tab, but there I think it would suffer from being an inferior SK105A2. Speaking of the Austrian REC-tab, I could add the M8 Greyhound and the M24 Chafee. Both were taken out of service in the 1960's, but they remain possibilities.

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