[Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

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Baaslerbeppi
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Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby Baaslerbeppi » Sun 5 Feb 2017 13:26

FrangibleCover wrote:If you have a source or a picture or anything for that that'd be superb, that's NCE's missing link in the Motorised deck.

There is none. They light mortar has been transported with either Puch, Pinzgauer (on a trailer) or 2DM trucks and then dismounted. But since Swiss gets a tracked Rapier why not a Puch or Pinz with fixed 8.1cm mortar?

FrangibleCover wrote:I think an Exceptional optics recon transport is perhaps too much and infantry get Very Good optics regardless of equipment set but every coalition gets Exceptional Optics so the Eagle WBG sounds like the correct thing to do with the chassis.

I didn't meant the Puch transport with exceptional, I meant the Puch VHC recon.

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Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby FrangibleCover » Sun 5 Feb 2017 13:49

Baaslerbeppi wrote:
FrangibleCover wrote:If you have a source or a picture or anything for that that'd be superb, that's NCE's missing link in the Motorised deck.

There is none. They light mortar has been transported with either Puch, Pinzgauer (on a trailer) or 2DM trucks and then dismounted. But since Swiss gets a tracked Rapier why not a Puch or Pinz with fixed 8.1cm mortar?

The Finnish Terra provides a precedent... I think it'd be best put in the excess units pile at the bottom of the spreadsheet.

I've also just noticed that you can get tracked mortars in a motorised deck so it's definitely non-essential.

FrangibleCover wrote:I think an Exceptional optics recon transport is perhaps too much and infantry get Very Good optics regardless of equipment set but every coalition gets Exceptional Optics so the Eagle WBG sounds like the correct thing to do with the chassis.

I didn't meant the Puch transport with exceptional, I meant the Puch VHC recon.

Oh, right, I get you.

Given that Switzerland has the MOWAG Spy to provide lightly-armoured wheeled VG optics and the Puch to provide Exceptional optics is there any need for the Eagle other than the Danes already having the model? It's just that NCE needs so many prototypes to be viable that it can't afford to have prototypes just because. I mean, how much do you actually see the Spejdervogn being used?
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Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby Eukie » Sun 5 Feb 2017 15:28

FrangibleCover wrote:Given that Switzerland has the MOWAG Spy to provide lightly-armoured wheeled VG optics and the Puch to provide Exceptional optics is there any need for the Eagle other than the Danes already having the model? It's just that NCE needs so many prototypes to be viable that it can't afford to have prototypes just because. I mean, how much do you actually see the Spejdervogn being used?


NCE as a whole, maybe, but the current proposal has nine Swiss prototypes. Denmark has eight, West Germany has ten, Canada has twelve, the Netherlands has ten. Certainly, the Eagle does look a bit superfluous - but I'm not sure if the Spy is actually Very Good and not just Good optics. In any case, I'm not too worried about the Eagle.

Now, spreadsheet updates! I've added years of introduction to the Swiss tanks as well as two new Saurer 4K variants; a Mistral-carrier and a SNORA carrier. Whereas the Swiss one would be a prototype, the Austria SNORA-carrier seems to have actually seen actual deployment to troops! Among Austrian Excess SUP I've added the SM-4 quad 120 mm mortar and a second Saurer 4K FlaK prototype. Additional Austrian Excess TNK includes the T-34/85 - long deprecated by 1980 but nonetheless a vehicle that once was part of Austrian arsenals.

Perhaps the most game-changing though, is that the SNORA was a weapon-system designed for integration with the Huey platform. Since Austria apparently had both SNORA and Twin Hueys, this means they can potentially be given a rocket gunship - and a more realistic gunship than the Alouette III SURA-D-wagon at that!

e:

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Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby FrangibleCover » Sun 5 Feb 2017 22:12

Eukie wrote:
FrangibleCover wrote:Given that Switzerland has the MOWAG Spy to provide lightly-armoured wheeled VG optics and the Puch to provide Exceptional optics is there any need for the Eagle other than the Danes already having the model? It's just that NCE needs so many prototypes to be viable that it can't afford to have prototypes just because. I mean, how much do you actually see the Spejdervogn being used?

NCE as a whole, maybe, but the current proposal has nine Swiss prototypes. Denmark has eight, West Germany has ten, Canada has twelve, the Netherlands has ten. Certainly, the Eagle does look a bit superfluous - but I'm not sure if the Spy is actually Very Good and not just Good optics. In any case, I'm not too worried about the Eagle.

Switzerland has 11 by my count: Command Piranha, Stinger, Flab 68, Piranha ADATS, SNORA M113, Panzerhaubitze 88/95, Eagle I, Piranha, PAL Piranha and the F-18C & Ds. Now, 11 is okay by me but if we could trade in the Eagle for a Piranha III 10x10 to achieve full high-speed infantry flavour that'd be preferable IMO. The pre-production Eagles have been bought by the Danes anyway!

Furthermore, since BGS and Fernspäher come in Fuchs and Fuchs MILANs could the Grenadieraüfklarer justify the Radschützenpanzer 93s? (I'm considering buying a German keyboard at this stage)

Now, spreadsheet updates! I've added years of introduction to the Swiss tanks as well as two new Saurer 4K variants; a Mistral-carrier and a SNORA carrier. Whereas the Swiss one would be a prototype, the Austria SNORA-carrier seems to have actually seen actual deployment to troops! Among Austrian Excess SUP I've added the SM-4 quad 120 mm mortar and a second Saurer 4K FlaK prototype. Additional Austrian Excess TNK includes the T-34/85 - long deprecated by 1980 but nonetheless a vehicle that once was part of Austrian arsenals.

Nice additions, especially the SNORA Schützenpanzer. I'm a little confused about the difference between the Pz 68 AA3 and AA4 other than to get another two cards of tanks into the tab. The problem with Austrian tanks coming back into service is that I'm not sure how much they had a reserve and how much they had a dude with a crowbar and a hole full of concrete. I know some T-34 turrets were kept as Tobruks but does that mean that there was a pile of hulls from which spares could be scavenged for the others or does it mean that there was a pile of tanks from which turret parts could be scavenged?

Incidentally, in a hypothetical campaign involving Austria for WG4 there should definitely be cheap turrets with no movement speed that would be deployable in owned sectors i.e. all sectors when Austria is defending but nothing useful when they're attacking. The models are practically free, create a grey box and then splice the turrets (presumably a separate model part since they rotate) from already modelled units onto them.

Perhaps the most game-changing though, is that the SNORA was a weapon-system designed for integration with the Huey platform. Since Austria apparently had both SNORA and Twin Hueys, this means they can potentially be given a rocket gunship - and a more realistic gunship than the Alouette III SURA-D-wagon at that!

Good find. There was a Hollow Charge SNORA as well so Austria could get a Bushranger clone if needed. Furthermore it's possible that the SNORA Schützenpanzer could become an IFV that uses them in direct fire (at a slow rate). It's probably better as rocket arty though.

[Pic]
l.MG51!

Is it a box? Is it a belt? Can it get the good stats from both :lol:?

Now, for my own contribution: https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/201 ... i-weapons/
I went looking for T-34s but I found the mortar halftrack! And a bunch of other stuff. Now, it does say that pretty much all of this stuff was out of service (although BNIB M1 Carbines for the Militz are tempting, given that they'd basically be a Battle Rifle statclone anyway) but I think a couple of bits could get a resurrection. Again, the no-fixed-forts rule is ruining my fun, I want direct-fire Long Toms from ambush!

http://www.wk1963.at/austrianarmy
The side also links though to this one which provides a bunch of pictures that seem to have been taken for the express purpose of modelling old Austrian kit. Handy!
Spoiler : Pinzgauers :
Pinzgauer_710M_REHAB_November2007_copyright_bundesheer_filzwieser.jpg
Pinzgauer_710M_REHAB_November2007_copyright_bundesheer_filzwieser.jpg (487.9 KiB) Viewed 648 times

A nice one of an Armed Pinzgauer (labelled Aufklärungs but whatever)
img329.jpg
img329.jpg (171.96 KiB) Viewed 648 times

And a rather grotty one of a Pinzgauer with an MG and dressed as a hedge.
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Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby Eukie » Mon 6 Feb 2017 01:31

FrangibleCover wrote:Switzerland has 11 by my count: Command Piranha, Stinger, Flab 68, Piranha ADATS, SNORA M113, Panzerhaubitze 88/95, Eagle I, Piranha, PAL Piranha and the F-18C & Ds. Now, 11 is okay by me but if we could trade in the Eagle for a Piranha III 10x10 to achieve full high-speed infantry flavour that'd be preferable IMO. The pre-production Eagles have been bought by the Danes anyway!


I appear to have miscounted!

FrangibleCover wrote:Furthermore, since BGS and Fernspäher come in Fuchs and Fuchs MILANs could the Grenadieraüfklarer justify the Radschützenpanzer 93s? (I'm considering buying a German keyboard at this stage)


There's no particular reason not to, unless Eugen doesn't like prototype transports for Recon infantry or something.

FrangibleCover wrote:I'm a little confused about the difference between the Pz 68 AA3 and AA4 other than to get another two cards of tanks into the tab. The problem with Austrian tanks coming back into service is that I'm not sure how much they had a reserve and how much they had a dude with a crowbar and a hole full of concrete. I know some T-34 turrets were kept as Tobruks but does that mean that there was a pile of hulls from which spares could be scavenged for the others or does it mean that there was a pile of tanks from which turret parts could be scavenged?


The AA4 has a better FCS than the AA3. That's the only real difference. As for the Austrian tanks, the hulls were probably scrapped at this point in time, but I included them for completeness sake.

FrangibleCover wrote:
[Pic]
l.MG51!

Is it a box? Is it a belt? Can it get the good stats from both :lol:?


That's a box magazine. It also comes with belts. Point is, it's both the MG3 and the l.MG3, should Switzerland need either.

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Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby FrangibleCover » Mon 6 Feb 2017 02:25

Eukie wrote:
FrangibleCover wrote:I'm a little confused about the difference between the Pz 68 AA3 and AA4 other than to get another two cards of tanks into the tab.

The AA4 has a better FCS than the AA3. That's the only real difference.

Is the AA4 the one with the bigger turret? If so then there'll be a reload time buff, which should help quite a lot since it seems to be a tank series with very little else to recommend to it: L7 gun but by the looks they were slow on getting the nice ammo, decent accuracy, steel-only armour, dodgy transmission. Like the Leopard 1 series without the mobility or the AP. Of course, that's discounting the horror stories about the electrical and NBC systems because even if they are true there's no modelling of that sort of stuff in Wargame.

There's going to be an unfortunate gulf between the 60-70 point M60A3Oe/Pz 68 AA6 and the 145 point Pz 87. Are there any possible filler tanks or do we just accept that the tank tab is like ANZAC's but with a Leopard 2A4NL?
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Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby Eukie » Mon 6 Feb 2017 11:52

FrangibleCover wrote:Is the AA4 the one with the bigger turret? If so then there'll be a reload time buff, which should help quite a lot since it seems to be a tank series with very little else to recommend to it: L7 gun but by the looks they were slow on getting the nice ammo, decent accuracy, steel-only armour, dodgy transmission. Like the Leopard 1 series without the mobility or the AP. Of course, that's discounting the horror stories about the electrical and NBC systems because even if they are true there's no modelling of that sort of stuff in Wargame.


Both the AA3 and the AA4 have the big turret.

FrangibleCover wrote:There's going to be an unfortunate gulf between the 60-70 point M60A3Oe/Pz 68 AA6 and the 145 point Pz 87. Are there any possible filler tanks or do we just accept that the tank tab is like ANZAC's but with a Leopard 2A4NL?


There is the Panzer 68 ET, which is a 1984 prototype Panzer 68/75 (AA3 or AA4) with a 120 mm gun and lots of applique armour. Beyond that, I'm fairly certain I've scraped the bottom of the barrel to the point I'm pulling up splinters with regards to tanks.

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Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby Eukie » Wed 8 Feb 2017 14:52

I've thought a little about Austrian aircraft. The main problem of these is that Austria was constitutionally banned from operating guided missiles, so they were "planning" to go Guns-Guns-Guns against Czechoslovakian MiGs. In the real world, this is suicidal bravery. In Wargame, it's pure madness.

Now, in 1993, Austrian airspace was violated by Slovenian (Or was it Slovakian?) fighter jets, and the Austrian response was "Well what are we afraid of really?", changed their constitution, and bought a ton of guided missile weapons. These are the guided weapons Austria has in the current proposal.

What this shows is that Austria is perfectly willing to change their constitution when they want missiles, as long as they're not under threat of being invaded by Czechoslovakia on Soviet orders. And, well, when Czechoslovakia is already invading, it's not like buying a crate of Sidewinders is going to make things worse.

So I imagine that if we really want to boost Austria's air-to-air capabilities in Wargame, we can say that when tensions rose before the outbreak of war, the US suddenly began to send a lot of Falcons and Sidewinders to Switzerland that somehow ended up near the Swiss-Austrian border, and a lot of Austrian pilots were sent to Sweden for "remedial" training on J35D's and Sk-105B's that just happen to have missile simulators mounted...

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Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby FrangibleCover » Wed 8 Feb 2017 15:16

Eukie wrote:I've thought a little about Austrian aircraft. The main problem of these is that Austria was constitutionally banned from operating guided missiles, so they were "planning" to go Guns-Guns-Guns against Czechoslovakian MiGs. In the real world, this is suicidal bravery. In Wargame, it's pure madness.

Now, in 1993, Austrian airspace was violated by Slovenian (Or was it Slovakian?) fighter jets, and the Austrian response was "Well what are we afraid of really?", changed their constitution, and bought a ton of guided missile weapons. These are the guided weapons Austria has in the current proposal.

What this shows is that Austria is perfectly willing to change their constitution when they want missiles, as long as they're not under threat of being invaded by Czechoslovakia on Soviet orders. And, well, when Czechoslovakia is already invading, it's not like buying a crate of Sidewinders is going to make things worse.

So I imagine that if we really want to boost Austria's air-to-air capabilities in Wargame, we can say that when tensions rose before the outbreak of war, the US suddenly began to send a lot of Falcons and Sidewinders to Switzerland that somehow ended up near the Swiss-Austrian border, and a lot of Austrian pilots were sent to Sweden for "remedial" training on J35D's and Sk-105B's that just happen to have missile simulators mounted...

Especially given that Austria adopted the PAL-2000 in the late 80s I'm perfectly happy with Austrian 35s receiving Sidewinders but because it's something that didn't actually happen it should probably remain as a 'classical' prototype, not an OOTF one. Then again, if we leave it to the 1992 one then there's the defensive upgrades (and I'm sure it would be reasonable for them to be brought forward by a year). I'd also leave the original 35s in and give them buffed gun accuracy on the basis that if 100% of your air-to-air weapons are guns then you're going to do far more aerial gunnery training than everyone else. I'd probably make it price noncompetitive and leave it as a flavour option though, I'm still a little concerned about spam.

Basically leave things as they are since it's all Cat-A anyway, I think. Any opinion on the 145mm HEAT rockets for the 105 or even the Tunnan?
Last edited by FrangibleCover on Wed 8 Feb 2017 19:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby Eukie » Wed 8 Feb 2017 15:58

FrangibleCover wrote:Basically leave things as they are since it's all Cat-A anyway, I think. Any opinion on the 145mm HEAT rockets for the 105 or even the Tunnan?


I don't know much about the Austrian loadout for the Tunnan, but the 105Ö was pretty much only loaded with two ADEN autocannon pods and two 6x launchers of 75 mm rockets in Austrian service as far as I've been able to determine.

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