[Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

User avatar
FrangibleCover
Lieutenant
Posts: 1439
Joined: Mon 14 Nov 2016 21:34
Contact:

Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby FrangibleCover » Thu 9 Feb 2017 15:37

I'm having a bit of a hunt about for stats on the Austrian RAT-700 round for the rPaK 40. I can't find an intro date but multiple sources are saying 700mm @ 2km like the Swedish 106 3A. I'm not quite sure which game AT scale that would map to or where it would come but given that 700mm penetration is the Kobra/Chu-MAT sort of range I'm thinking somewhere around 21AP HEAT (low accuracy, mind). That could be very handy on the back of a Pinzgauer. Wiki sources the Jane's Ammunition Handbook 1994 so that's an upper bound for introduction date but unfortunately I don't have the $200 spare to pick a copy up myself and check for more info.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Fol ... AT&f=false
http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=2854
What if Wargame stuck to timeframe?
Image

User avatar
Eukie
Chief Warrant Officer
Posts: 532
Joined: Wed 23 Apr 2014 16:22
Contact:

Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby Eukie » Fri 10 Feb 2017 01:36

FrangibleCover wrote:I'm having a bit of a hunt about for stats on the Austrian RAT-700 round for the rPaK 40. I can't find an intro date but multiple sources are saying 700mm @ 2km like the Swedish 106 3A. I'm not quite sure which game AT scale that would map to or where it would come but given that 700mm penetration is the Kobra/Chu-MAT sort of range I'm thinking somewhere around 21AP HEAT (low accuracy, mind). That could be very handy on the back of a Pinzgauer. Wiki sources the Jane's Ammunition Handbook 1994 so that's an upper bound for introduction date but unfortunately I don't have the $200 spare to pick a copy up myself and check for more info.


Jane's is not generally a good source for dates, and they don't seem to have anything on the RAT-700. Though browsing some articles I managed to find, I discovered that:

1: Austria bought M-63 Plamen rockets for use in the RM-51 in 1988-1989, which allows them to field another MLRS if I can figure out whatever Austria uses for KAWEST/PIP.
2: They designed a variant of the MP69 called the MP81 that was supposed to be used through firing ports in APCs. It was then replaced by the MP88. Now, it still seems that the Bundesheer preferred their StG 77's for Panzergrenadier use, but it might be a way to distinguish Ö-Panzergrenadiers from Feldjäger.

The infantry-tab proposal is:
Landstrum, a Heimatschützen-clone
Militz, a Hærhjemmeværnet-clone with Battle Rifles
Füsiliere, a Mehanizovana Peš-clone with Battle Rifles
Ö-Panzergrenadiere, a Chasseurs 85-clone, possibly with SMGs (and MG3)
Feldjäger, a Chasseurs 85-clone with +5 km/h speed (and MG3)
Grenadiere, Shock Light Riflemen (with MG3)
Gebirgsjäger, a Legion-clone (with MG3)
Jagdkommando, a Commando-Marine-clone (with MG3)

Supported by
Panzerabwehr, a Stormingeniører-clone
PAL-2000, a Pvgrp RBS 56-clone
Mistral, a Mistral-clone
Stinger, a LAAD Stinger-C clone
PAL Dragon, a Vuurploeg-clone
Genietrupp, an Assault Pioneers-clone

90's infantry includes Regular-veterancy Haebyung '90 (with MG3), Shock Light Riflemen 90 (with MG3), and Vuurploeg 90.

It's a nice infantry tab, no?

User avatar
FrangibleCover
Lieutenant
Posts: 1439
Joined: Mon 14 Nov 2016 21:34
Contact:

Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby FrangibleCover » Fri 10 Feb 2017 02:35

Eukie wrote:
FrangibleCover wrote:I'm having a bit of a hunt about for stats on the Austrian RAT-700 round for the rPaK 40. I can't find an intro date but multiple sources are saying 700mm @ 2km like the Swedish 106 3A. I'm not quite sure which game AT scale that would map to or where it would come but given that 700mm penetration is the Kobra/Chu-MAT sort of range I'm thinking somewhere around 21AP HEAT (low accuracy, mind). That could be very handy on the back of a Pinzgauer. Wiki sources the Jane's Ammunition Handbook 1994 so that's an upper bound for introduction date but unfortunately I don't have the $200 spare to pick a copy up myself and check for more info.

Jane's is not generally a good source for dates, and they don't seem to have anything on the RAT-700.

Perhaps not but they're going to have great difficulty publishing an article on a system that hasn't been thought of yet. I only quoted it as an upper bound to show that RAT 700 is at least within prototype timeframe.
https://murdercube.com/files/Firearms/J ... %2Cnull%5D
I can do you one better, an article published in 1992 saying 'advanced development' means that while it's a prototype it's almost certainly in a fireable condition in 1991. The increased muzzle velocity claim is interesting.
https://murdercube.com/files/Firearms/J ... %2Cnull%5D
On the other hand, literally the next article claims that this thing exists, which I can find no supporting evidence for. I have failed to catch the RAT, back to the drawing board :x . There was also some interesting stuff about a 15.2mm APDS Rifle from Steyr but, having started development in the Mid-80s, they still do not appear to have finished it.

Though browsing some articles I managed to find, I discovered that:
1: Austria bought M-63 Plamen rockets for use in the RM-51 in 1988-1989, which allows them to field another MLRS if I can figure out whatever Austria uses for KAWEST/PIP.

M-51 and M-51 Plamen would do, it really doesn't matter. It might be a good idea to rename the Yugoslav Plamen to Plamen-S to make the difference clear. Would this be a special MRL or just a HE/Smoke type of deal?

2: They designed a variant of the MP69 called the MP81 that was supposed to be used through firing ports in APCs. It was then replaced by the MP88. Now, it still seems that the Bundesheer preferred their StG 77's for Panzergrenadier use, but it might be a way to distinguish Ö-Panzergrenadiers from Feldjäger.

Anything to diminish the monotony of AUG/CG/MG3. It's a mech inf specific weapon, it's historically interesting and it incentivises the use of Feldjäger for their stats and general utility and Panzergrens for their transports and their utility in cities, which I think is an interesting dynamic.

It's a nice infantry tab, no?

It rather has to be :(
What if Wargame stuck to timeframe?
Image

User avatar
Eukie
Chief Warrant Officer
Posts: 532
Joined: Wed 23 Apr 2014 16:22
Contact:

Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby Eukie » Fri 10 Feb 2017 20:38

FrangibleCover wrote:M-51 and M-51 Plamen would do, it really doesn't matter. It might be a good idea to rename the Yugoslav Plamen to Plamen-S to make the difference clear. Would this be a special MRL or just a HE/Smoke type of deal?


I think it'll just be a normal HE warhead with whatever HE rating 2.3 kg of TNT allows.

I also figured out what the mystery rocket tube was. It's an RL-100 Blindicide, known as PAR 57 in Austrian service, that was trialled but long since replaced by the Carl Gustav by 1980.

I've not really been happy with the "Gebirgsjäger" name, and "Luftlandesoldaten" sounded way too plain, but perusing some articles on the Jägerbattalion 25 reveals that they're often called "JgB25", which I think sounds much better. Personal opinion and all, but I'm not the one who has final say in what, if anything, gets added in a DLC anyway.

This website suggests that the JgB25 were also one of the few users of the lMG 77 and the StG 77 Kurs (Steyr AUG Carbine), so there's some variety that can be included in their loadout. The JgB25 also trialled the MILAN in 1989, which could be useful if someone thinks Neutral Central Europe needs an infantry ATGM with better range than the RBS-56.

Gen3ralAustria
Master Sergeant
Posts: 160
Joined: Fri 21 Feb 2014 19:47
Location: Gramastetten, Mühlviertel, Upper Austria (OÖ), Austria
Contact:

Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby Gen3ralAustria » Wed 26 Apr 2017 20:26

From what I think there is little chance for Austria/Switzerland to be implemeted into the game.
Stell Division 44 is just around the corner and Eugen doesn't care about Red Dragon anymore.
And a Wargame 4 is probably not in sight for either a long time or forever.

So, although the hard work here (which I highly apprechiate as indigenous austrian) I think it won't come to life sadly.
Still thank you very much for all you have done here, it was a surprise for me to see this topic even come to light as there are so many competing countries there which want to achieve the same.
Maybe one day, this project will have had a purpose.
One day, we may have our Alpine coalition.
Gebirgsjäger and Panzeregrenadiere in Saurer or Pandur, Drakens in the air alongside a Hunter or F-18.
Austria for Wargame:RD as National Pack!

User avatar
FrangibleCover
Lieutenant
Posts: 1439
Joined: Mon 14 Nov 2016 21:34
Contact:

Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby FrangibleCover » Wed 26 Apr 2017 21:03

Gen3ralAustria wrote:From what I think there is little chance for Austria/Switzerland to be implemeted into the game.
Stell Division 44 is just around the corner and Eugen doesn't care about Red Dragon anymore.
And a Wargame 4 is probably not in sight for either a long time or forever.

So, although the hard work here (which I highly apprechiate as indigenous austrian) I think it won't come to life sadly.
Still thank you very much for all you have done here, it was a surprise for me to see this topic even come to light as there are so many competing countries there which want to achieve the same.
Maybe one day, this project will have had a purpose.
One day, we may have our Alpine coalition.
Gebirgsjäger and Panzeregrenadiere in Saurer or Pandur, Drakens in the air alongside a Hunter or F-18.

Personally, what I'm banking on right now for the realisation of Wished Dreams is Eugen Secret Project 2 being another cold war title. Still, I find that the fun of nation building is in the chase!

I don't think it's odd that the Alpine states have come up. Austria was guaranteed to play a big, if not voluntary, part in the classic WW3 in Europe scenario and Switzerland is the home country of the second or third most popular wheeled APC series ever. Austria isn't the worst nation that's been proposed for Wargame; I've seen Peru, Costa Rica, Albania, Ireland, Nigeria and Mozambique suggested with varying degrees of seriousness in the last six months.

If the next Wargame isn't coming any time soon, I might just learn to mod. I think the "Back to Europe" mod has a certain ring to it. China->Romania, North Korea->Bulgaria (with two Hungarian units), ANZAC->Belgium ;), South Korea->Italy, Japan->Spain and that leaves Israel to find a new home. I don't know how possible it is to add entirely new nations without reroling but I do hear it's impossible to add extra units without reroling something. Because Austria is pretty small I might be able to change Israel into Switzerland and then rip the heart out of Naval and remove some crap units and some of my personal bêtes noires like the Novi Avion and, uh, literally every superheavy to scrape Austria together from parts.
What if Wargame stuck to timeframe?
Image

User avatar
Eukie
Chief Warrant Officer
Posts: 532
Joined: Wed 23 Apr 2014 16:22
Contact:

Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby Eukie » Thu 27 Apr 2017 16:38

Sometimes it's just a fun exercise to look at what a nation can be given. I've learned quite a lot about the history of apartheid-era South Africa, and there's just something delightful in discovering the less well known weapons a nation fielded or prototyped. ^_^

User avatar
Eukie
Chief Warrant Officer
Posts: 532
Joined: Wed 23 Apr 2014 16:22
Contact:

Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby Eukie » Thu 11 May 2017 22:39

Image

That's an Austrian-designed wheeled mount for the M40. I originally rejected the M40 for being unwieldly and too heavy for infantry. This has a total weight of not much more than the Pvpj 1110 and is wheeled, just like the Pvpj 1110.

And I have been looking for an alternative weapon for the Feldjäger...

Sometime before 1992 the RAT 700 ammunition becomes available, giving the Austrian M40's 700-900 RHAe penetration. That's at least 24 AP. At 1400 meters. Feldjäger 90? :3

User avatar
FrangibleCover
Lieutenant
Posts: 1439
Joined: Mon 14 Nov 2016 21:34
Contact:

Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby FrangibleCover » Fri 12 May 2017 00:57

Eukie wrote:That's an Austrian-designed wheeled mount for the M40. I originally rejected the M40 for being unwieldly and too heavy for infantry. This has a total weight of not much more than the Pvpj 1110 and is wheeled, just like the Pvpj 1110.

Excellent. Will this replace the CG Fist team do you think? Remember that the US gets it's Cat-C ATGM team from Light Riflemen so I think you'd get away with replacing your Cat-C ATGM replacement team with light infantry.
Also that gets my pet-unit Oerlikon FIST/MANPADS back into consideration again ;]

Sometime before 1992 the RAT 700 ammunition becomes available, giving the Austrian M40's 700-900 RHAe penetration. That's at least 24 AP. At 1400 meters. Feldjäger 90? :3

Well, I hear the Faustmann PF-98 (aside from being a slap in the face) on Tanke Shashou '95 is good without being OP with vaguely similar stats. I think that RAT 700 equipped infantry is a great idea for Austria, having ridiculous light infantry AT is exactly the sort of flavour that they need. There's also the opportunity for a 24AP Pinzgauer RR jeep '90 for perhaps 20 points that might actually be usable.

How sure are you about that 1400m figure, by the way? I was finding 2km range numbers for RAT-700 and that's certainly not what I'd think of as the traditional remit of recoilless rifles. 2km range is what a MILAN has if you want to get really chancy with it :D.
What if Wargame stuck to timeframe?
Image

User avatar
Mike
More than 10 000 messages. Soldier you are the leader of all armies!
Posts: 12334
Joined: Thu 20 Feb 2014 01:09
Location: Virginia, United States of America
Contact:

Re: [Non-included Coalition] Neutral Central Europe (Austria+Switzerland)

Postby Mike » Fri 12 May 2017 05:16

Eukie wrote:I originally rejected the M40 for being unwieldy and too heavy for infantry. This has a total weight of not much more than the Pvpj 1110 and is wheeled, just like the Pvpj 1110.


It's shoulder fired in game. :lol:
Image
Courtesy of KattiValk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests