[Non/Future Nation] Baathist Alliance: Iraq and Syria

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47andrej
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Re: [Non/Future Nation] Baathist Alliance: Iraq and Syria

Postby 47andrej » Sat 14 Jan 2017 17:58

Iraqs heaviest MLRS Ababeel-100 / Al Fat'h
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globalsecurity.org wrote:One major development of Iraq's military industry included Multiple Rocket Launch Systems (MLRS). Local variants of the Luna-M (FROG-7A) had their range extended from 70,000 to 90,000 meters. Iraq experimented with eight different MRLS using a wide range of technologies from around the globe to come up with an Iraqi system for mass-production and export.

The Ababil-50, Iraq's precursor to the Ababil-100, was developed in 1980 when Iraq and Yugoslavia agreed to develop and produce a small battlefield artillery rocket. The rocket was called the Ababil-50 in Iraq and the Orkan M-87 in Yugoslavia. The Ababil-50 inspired an interest in solid-propellant missiles.

The crown jewel in Iraq's MLRS manufacturing capability was the locally produced Ababil-100 [ABABEEL] system, later renamed Al-Fat'h. This program was based in part on the Ababil-50, with an initial goal of achieving a range of 100 km.Research and development on this program continued through 2002. The 400 mm Ababil-100 is a truck mounted MLRS with a four round capability. Each rocket fired by the ABABEEL reportedly carries a warhead capable of dispensing 300 anti-tank bomblets and 25 anti-tank minelets. The "Ababil-100" is designed to have a range of 130 to 140km.

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Re: [Non/Future Nation] Baathist Alliance: Iraq and Syria

Postby 47andrej » Sat 14 Jan 2017 18:11

Iraqi military industrial complex and the 1989 Baghdad Arms Expo.

From The Death Lobby by Ken Timmerman wrote:In Iraq, Saddam Hussein's birthday is a national holiday. Schoolchildren are encouraged to sing songs for their President. Hotels bake cakes. Cars and buses are festooned with flowers. Baghdad itself becomes a festival of colored lights. But April 28, 1989 was a birthday unlike all the others. This year, Saddam had decided to prepare an additional surprise for his subjects, his arms suppliers, his bankers and technology brokers. He called it the First Baghdad International Exhibition for Military Production. Its symbol was an Iraqi flag shaped into the form of a dove. Its slogan was "Defence equipment for peace and prosperity." It was not Saddam's idea of a joke.

...

The arms show opened on a note of tragedy, when an Egyptian pilot flying an Alphajet trainer that had been assembled in Helwan, Egypt, overshot the runway at Baghdad's al-Muthena airport, and mistakenly turned toward the Presidential Palace. The war with Iran might be over, but Saddam's Republican Guard was ever alert. Before the Egyptian could manoeuvre out of forbidden airspace, his Alphajet was torn to shreds by Soviet-built anti-aircraft guns positioned on the palace roof, and crashed into a residential area of Baghdad, killing twenty. The pilot and his navigator were seriously injured when they ejected.

The Arms Fair was intended to show the world what the Iraqis could do, and to convince foreign partners that Iraq was still the best game in town. "All over the world you can hear people bragging about how much they will do," Lt. General Amer Rashid pointed out, "and at the end of the day they have nothing. We have chosen to keep silent all these years, even as others mocked us. Today we have something to show that no one can deny." Although it was not strictly speaking the first time Iraq had ever shown locally-made weapons systems, it was the first time Iraq opened its doors to foreign manufacturers, military delegations and the press (few journalists deigned to come), to take a detailed, first-hand look at the Iraqi arsenal. And what many saw was a shock for which they were ill-prepared. Including, some of Iraq's oldest friends.

One poignant scene took place beneath the wing of a French built Mirage F1 fighter-bomber. General Maurice Schmidt was the French Chief of Staff. He had come to Baghdad as the personal representative of French Defense Minister, Jean-Pierre Chevènement, an ardent admirer of Saddam Hussein. Schmidt too admired the independence and hard work the Iraqis displayed. But when he saw what the Iraqis had done with the Mirage he could hardly contain himself.

"What the hell is that?" he shouted at Dassault's Huygues de l'Estoile, pointing to an unfamiliar missile hanging beneath the wing of the French fighter.

"Well, General. If you ask me, it looks like a Soviet-built AS-14." The AS-14 was a laser-guided missile, somewhat akin to the French AS-30L which the Iraqis had bought in large quantities. The AS-14, which was believed to incorporate stolen French technology, presented two distinct advantages over the French version: it had a slightly longer range, and it was much less expensive.

Schmidt looked De l'Estoile in the eye: "What have you people been up to over here, anyway?"

"Don't look at me. We had nothing to do with this. The Iraqis have been working all by themselves. "

De l'Estoile then took the General in his white képi and summer dress uniform over to another plane sitting on the tarmac of al-Muthena airport. It was a Soviet-built MiG 23. "See that refueling probe?" De l'Estoile pointed to the nose of the Soviet fighter. "That's one of ours."

Schmidt was not amused, even though De l'Estoile hastened to explain that the Iraqis had adapted the French refueling probe to the Soviet fighter without ever asking Dassault. In a subsequent interview following Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, General Schmidt said it was here, at the Baghdad arms fair, that he first "began to wonder whether we hadn't gone a bit too far" in Iraq. "I realized we had better begin paying closer attention to what the Iraqis were developing in the way of armament."

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Re: Arab Federation - proporsal for a possible future Nation DLC

Postby FrangibleCover » Sat 14 Jan 2017 21:09

47andrej wrote:
FrangibleCover wrote:[*]Eugen are never going to let us get away with the TURMS FCS. Did either power look at anything else? Kontakt-5?

Sadly i have no info about non-realized armor plans of either powers. I wonder when TURMS FCS was developed, as one could argument Syria made it earlier in Wargames slightly alternative timeline

Well, I had a bit of a prod. It looks as though TURMS (maybe not TURMS-T, what's the difference?) was fitted as standard to the B1 Centauro when it entered service in 1991. IMO that actually makes the Syrian TURMS T-72s plausible, all they had to do was get some cash together and ask. Before someone says "Well, yes, but they're going to be on Redfor", Finnish F-18.

Additionally, I worked out some super duper provisional point values for the tanks tab to look for gaps. Be warned, I've never done this before, assume everything to be +/-10 points.
Spoiler : Me not understanding tank pricing :
  • 20 - Type 59 (Assuming it's like the NorK one with no KPVT), T-62
  • 25 - IS-3M (Whooole lotta frontal armour and the gun from a 15 point FSV), T-55A
  • 30
  • 35
  • 40 - Type 69-IIA (like the T-55AM), T-55A QM (like the ZTZ-59-IIA with slightly less armour, could go up if the FCS is better)
  • 45 - T-72 Ural
  • 50 - T-55 Enigma (Not a clue how to price this thing, it's just plopped here. It's armoured like a Chieftain but the gun is horrible.)
  • 55 - T-62M (Fits between the T-62M and the MV-1), T-55 QM2 (Gun from an 85 point tank, armour from a 30 point one, halfway?)
  • 60 - T-55AMV, T-82
  • 65
  • 70 - Assad Babil (Between the KPz T-72M1 and the Nork T-72M)
  • 75
  • 80 - T-92
  • 85
  • 90
  • 95
  • 100
  • 105
  • 110
  • 115 - T-82M (- 1 FAV, soft-stat mix and the ATGM from the T-64BV, -2 FAV from the T-72S1)
  • 120
  • 125 - T-82S (Gun from a Vihor with less armour/WILK-2 with less armour but a better gun means about 120, +5 for GLATGM)

While the low end is filled out I got a huge gulf between the 70ish point Assad Babil and the 110ish point T-82. How about adding the Syrian T-72M1s (T-92 according to Oryx Blog http://spioenkop.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12 ... -t-72.html) as a copy of the KPz T-72M1 (The 1989 one) at 80 points to help close the gap? The 1992 intro date means it's just barely proto unfortunately, although that might mean that it can wangle +1 AP even over the +2 that the KPz gets.

The base T-72A (T-82) is an option as well, although it's at a slightly more crowded price point. The later intro date gives a smidge more AP and could drag it up from 55 points to 60. If the option is taken the T-72AV can become the T-82M for Mutafajjira (Google tells me it means 'explosive', which is what the V in AV means).

If this is useless, at least I got a discussion going :lol:
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Re: Arab Federation - proporsal for a possible future Nation DLC

Postby 47andrej » Sun 15 Jan 2017 12:34

FrangibleCover wrote:Well, I had a bit of a prod. It looks as though TURMS (maybe not TURMS-T, what's the difference?) was fitted as standard to the B1 Centauro when it entered service in 1991. IMO that actually makes the Syrian TURMS T-72s plausible, all they had to do was get some cash together and ask. Before someone says "Well, yes, but they're going to be on Redfor", Finnish F-18.

Thats good thing, thanks.
FrangibleCover wrote:Additionally, I worked out some super duper provisional point values for the tanks tab to look for gaps. Be warned, I've never done this before, assume everything to be +/-10 points.
Spoiler : Me not understanding tank pricing :
  • 20 - Type 59 (Assuming it's like the NorK one with no KPVT), T-62
  • 25 - IS-3M (Whooole lotta frontal armour and the gun from a 15 point FSV), T-55A
  • 30
  • 35
  • 40 - Type 69-IIA (like the T-55AM), T-55A QM (like the ZTZ-59-IIA with slightly less armour, could go up if the FCS is better)
  • 45 - T-72 Ural
  • 50 - T-55 Enigma (Not a clue how to price this thing, it's just plopped here. It's armoured like a Chieftain but the gun is horrible.)
  • 55 - T-62M (Fits between the T-62M and the MV-1), T-55 QM2 (Gun from an 85 point tank, armour from a 30 point one, halfway?)
  • 60 - T-55AMV, T-82
  • 65
  • 70 - Assad Babil (Between the KPz T-72M1 and the Nork T-72M)
  • 75
  • 80 - T-92
  • 85
  • 90
  • 95
  • 100
  • 105
  • 110
  • 115 - T-82M (- 1 FAV, soft-stat mix and the ATGM from the T-64BV, -2 FAV from the T-72S1)
  • 120
  • 125 - T-82S (Gun from a Vihor with less armour/WILK-2 with less armour but a better gun means about 120, +5 for GLATGM)

IMO Enigma could go up in price, easily 60 pts. Gun aint that bad anymore with recent buffs.
T-82 and T-82S however are both a bit to pricey, 16 av is T-64BM tier, also less ROF and T-82 comes without ATGM. T-82 for 105 and T-82S for 115 pts i would say. Rest looks fine.

FrangibleCover wrote:While the low end is filled out I got a huge gulf between the 70ish point Assad Babil and the 110ish point T-82. How about adding the Syrian T-72M1s (T-92 according to Oryx Blog http://spioenkop.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12 ... -t-72.html) as a copy of the KPz T-72M1 (The 1989 one) at 80 points to help close the gap? The 1992 intro date means it's just barely proto unfortunately, although that might mean that it can wangle +1 AP even over the +2 that the KPz gets.

The base T-72A (T-82) is an option as well, although it's at a slightly more crowded price point. The later intro date gives a smidge more AP and could drag it up from 55 points to 60. If the option is taken the T-72AV can become the T-82M for Mutafajjira (Google tells me it means 'explosive', which is what the V in AV means).

Every RedFor nation besides USSR and China has T-72M and M1 so i'm (and probably most of playerbase) feeling sick of them. M1 was also IMO pretty overbuffed in effort to make NSWP good coalition, at least in front armor being better than T-72A. Just different name T-92 is lame :P

I think baath tank roster is pretty unique so far: any nation BluFor or RedFor has either superheavy or Leopard 1 as it best. So Baath Alliance would be in between.

If there is need to fill up place between Asad Babil and T-82 i could think of Asad Babil with ERA. Small amount was fitted with what looks like K-1 only short before 2003 Iraq War thats why i omitted them. Besides ERA nothing changed.
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Re: Arab Federation - proporsal for a possible future Nation DLC

Postby FrangibleCover » Sun 15 Jan 2017 19:32

47andrej wrote:IMO Enigma could go up in price, easily 60 pts. Gun aint that bad anymore with recent buffs.
T-82 and T-82S however are both a bit to pricey, 16 av is T-64BM tier, also less ROF and T-82 comes without ATGM. T-82 for 105 and T-82S for 115 pts i would say. Rest looks fine.

Yeah, fair enough. It's not easy to do when I don't really know what the accuracy or RoF values will be like. I presume the T-82S is going to be 70% though?

Every RedFor nation besides USSR and China has T-72M and M1 so i'm (and probably most of playerbase) feeling sick of them. M1 was also IMO pretty overbuffed in effort to make NSWP good coalition, at least in front armor being better than T-72A. Just different name T-92 is lame :P

I get that, sure. I think the T-72M1s could probably be nerfed back down now with the T-72Ss and WILKs and suchlike, but the T-92 with its prototype ammo would fit well into the current Baathist flavour of putting the good armour on one tank and the good gun on another. If the Enigma's going to 60 points the T-72A is redundant.

Also, T-92>T-90 :lol:

I think baath tank roster is pretty unique so far: any nation BluFor or RedFor has either superheavy or Leopard 1 as it best. So Baath Alliance would be in between.

It'll be a terror of a mechanised tank tab, you don't lose out on anything! On the other hand all the good artillery is wheeled. I don't think there's call for a super heavy, there's nothing they can realistically get and Baathland really shouldn't be mixing it with the big boys in terms of armour in 1991 anyway!.

If there is need to fill up place between Asad Babil and T-82 i could think of Asad Babil with ERA. Small amount was fitted with what looks like K-1 only short before 2003 Iraq War thats why i omitted them. Besides ERA nothing changed.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of that solution. Reaching all the way to 2002 for an ~80 point tank when we could get one from ~1992 or even just leave it seems unnecessary. I suppose that the Iraqis could nick some Syrian Kontakt-1 if we're assuming closer cooperation between the two powers but it's a little too handwavey when we're already asking for time-travelling Blufor FCS. I'd be interested in a T-55 QM2 Enigma though, if it was considered! 100% indigenous and perfectly possible if the Iraqis are prepared to deal with early-Panther level drivetrain reliability :D .

I noticed in the spreadsheet that you've put in Iraqi Sea Kings and Wessexes as a possibility. https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive ... 02515.html This says that they had 6 of each so I guess they're not notable in the same way as the Soviet helis are but they are flavoursome so perhaps including a VIP Sea King as the mandatory command helo would be nice and then the model can be reskinned and distributed to half of Blufor in various roles :lol:. A quick count indicates operation by America, Japan, Canada, the UK, West Germany, Australia, Denmark and Norway.
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Re: [Non/Future Nation] Baathist Alliance: Iraq and Syria

Postby 47andrej » Sat 21 Jan 2017 18:59

After reading Iglus Cuban Forces proposal i noticed Syria has one similar vehicle as AAPMP-100
Cpt Iglu wrote:SUP
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Its aswell a KS-19 100mm Radar aimed AA gun but on 2K12 Kvadrat chassis opposed to cuban T-34 plattform.
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I dont have construction year, last time it was tranferred/borrowed from Syrian Arab Army to Hezbollah. Basically worser Otomatic :)

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Re: [Non/Future Nation] Baathist Alliance: Iraq and Syria

Postby FrangibleCover » Sat 21 Jan 2017 19:52

47andrej wrote:After reading Iglus Cuban Forces proposal i noticed Syria has one similar vehicle as AAPMP-100
Cpt Iglu wrote:SUP
Image

Its aswell a KS-19 100mm Radar aimed AA gun but on 2K12 Kvadrat chassis opposed to cuban T-34 plattform.
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I dont have construction year, last time it was tranferred/borrowed from Syrian Arab Army to Hezbollah. Basically worser Otomatic :)

Those stats in particular look a too good for the system and the price (40% accuracy on manually laid medium AA? 72 HE/min against infantry at 2km through a 100mm gun? KE ammo in addition and all for only 60 points?) but a little toned down and with a [RAD] tag I could see the Oto-tragic being a fun addition for Cuba and the Baathists.

Thinking a little further on it, is this Cuba and Baathitania's answer to the Longbow problem? If we're giving NATO 20mm rounds 2800m Anti-Helo range then a Radar equipped KS-19 can probably merit 3150m or beyond. It's not going to be accurate at that range but does the US player really want to roll those dice for the sake of killing a T-72AV?
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Re: [Non/Future Nation] Baathist Alliance: Iraq and Syria

Postby Killertomato » Sat 21 Jan 2017 19:56

I lost it at oto-tragic.
orcbuster wrote:USSR gets prototype marsupials, why would you need moose when you got stuff with kickers like that AND transport capability? And I'm not even gonna START on the french Marsupilami, I don't even think thats a real animal! Why no trolls for Norway?

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Re: [Non/Future Nation] Baathist Alliance: Iraq and Syria

Postby Cpt Iglu » Sat 21 Jan 2017 21:35

FrangibleCover wrote:Those stats in particular look a too good for the system and the price (40% accuracy on manually laid medium AA? 72 HE/min against infantry at 2km through a 100mm gun? KE ammo in addition and all for only 60 points?) but a little toned down and with a [RAD] tag I could see the Oto-tragic being a fun addition for Cuba and the Baathists.

Thinking a little further on it, is this Cuba and Baathitania's answer to the Longbow problem? If we're giving NATO 20mm rounds 2800m Anti-Helo range then a Radar equipped KS-19 can probably merit 3150m or beyond. It's not going to be accurate at that range but does the US player really want to roll those dice for the sake of killing a T-72AV?


I designed this unit card as a really downgraded version of the Otomatik. Comparing them you will see its a terrible downgrade indeed. The only upside of it is its calibre. When looking at the Oto-tragic you will see that even its 76mm generates 3 he. I think that should represent the huge effect of airburst ammo on aerial target. No difference for this unit. It's gun was designed to shoot very (for WG veryvery) high (strategic) targets, so the otorange is a must.
The acc is a special thing here. I do think that in quite close engagements, like we have them in WG, a burst of a 100mm shell that is only aimed in the general direction of the target, will be a gg for a helo IRL.
From a gameplay view this gun is still a risky thing. With 40% its a coin-flipper at best. With firing every 3 or 4 seconds it will have no chance shooting down plane on its own and even helicopter will have time to react, a thing they cant do when being in range of other (cheaper) AAA in WG.
So nothing near a reliable AA piece.

If you say the Oto is underpriced, I will agree. It's more than just reliable :D so the (only) 20 point difference to this unit card is ok.
3150m for a acc nerf, yeah maybe. Though when keeping it at otorange, we are not creating a new thing for new tears.

And the 2800m on the Machbet is too much. 1+

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Re: [Non/Future Nation] Baathist Alliance: Iraq and Syria

Postby 47andrej » Sat 21 Jan 2017 22:34

FrangibleCover wrote:Those stats in particular look a too good for the system and the price (40% accuracy on manually laid medium AA? 72 HE/min against infantry at 2km through a 100mm gun? KE ammo in addition and all for only 60 points?) but a little toned down and with a [RAD] tag I could see the Oto-tragic being a fun addition for Cuba and the Baathists.

Thinking a little further on it, is this Cuba and Baathitania's answer to the Longbow problem? If we're giving NATO 20mm rounds 2800m Anti-Helo range then a Radar equipped KS-19 can probably merit 3150m or beyond. It's not going to be accurate at that range but does the US player really want to roll those dice for the sake of killing a T-72AV?

Well, Otomatic has 180 HE/min so 64 HE/min is not a big deal(I reduced RoF to 16 cause its the highest i could find)

Range argument is legit, KS-19 gets its shells 15 km high or 21 km far. I'm unsure about accuracy, its automatically radar aimed cannon.
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By the way, Baath party flag has some resemblance to Palestine one :)

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