[Non/Future Nation] Baathist Alliance: Iraq and Syria

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Mike
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Re: Arab Federation - proporsal for a possible future Nation DLC

Postby Mike » Wed 28 Dec 2016 19:42

Xeno426 wrote:
47andrej wrote:MiG-21PFM „Crni Bombarder“
Iraqi, 1990, 20% ECM, Medium stealth
Armament 2xBADR-28(500KG)
Cat A prototype
Notes: experimental radar absorbent paint

Still would have poor stealth. Radar absorbent paint isn't going to fix the problem of the MiG-21's shape being extremely radar reflective. I mean, the Soviets never had much difficulty locking on to the Blackbird...


But the poor MiGs couldn't hang. 8-)

Also I might piss myself laughing carpet bombing and armored push with and B-2. :lol:
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Re: Arab Federation - proporsal for a possible future Nation DLC

Postby FrangibleCover » Wed 28 Dec 2016 19:59

Alright, this has been a long time in coming but I'm just going to dump out a list of further thoughts about the deck as it stands. You already know I think it's great and I love the new air tab, this is mostly stuff on what I don't think will fly with Eugen and sorting out the redundancies. Everything I suggest taking out should be moved into a grab bag of other units at the bottom of the page, just like the other lists that have been on the forums, in case Eugen decide they want it.
  • The AMX-10 VFA seems to be an artillery observation vehicle, not a CV. That means it can go to the recon tab and there's no redundancy issue any more. If they had the AMX-10 PC then it's not worth a new model but it would be worth it if it kept the Autocannon.
  • Most places have 10 man militia squads so maybe standardise the Baathist ones. I'd prefer to see the 15 man squads for Iran because of their, uh, their emphasis on shock and mass in assaults.
  • No '80 shock squad is going to be pretty painful in Cat-C decks, which are still theoretically a feature of the game. Why not put in Syrian Republican Guard (Rep Guard and call the current lot Rep Guard '85) with AKMs, RPG-7s or RPG-18s and RPKs or RPDs? It'll also mean you have something to put in the Syrian unique transports, if they had any.
  • The AGS squad with the machine gun too is probably a little much. Also, why are they shock? Republican Guard training?
  • Eugen are never going to let us get away with the TURMS FCS. Did either power look at anything else? Kontakt-5?
  • I don't see the redundancy between the BTR-50 and the Praga, one is tracked and available in Mechanized and Armoured, the other is wheeled and available in Motorised.
  • Do we know which Osa the Osa is?
  • Split the Roland into 'MAN Roland 2' on the truck chassis and 'AMX Roland 2' on the tank chassis.
  • In terms of artillery I'd keep the GCT F1 because everyone else on Redfor has a 2S3 and I'd keep the D-30 on the T-34 because it's cat-c and far more interesting than another 2S1.
  • I'm split on which Prototype SPG to keep. The Majnoon will be handier and generally probably more useful on the battlefield but the Al-Fao fits in nicely with the whole Gerard Bull BIG GUNZ thing that was going on at the time and provides an 8" class piece with modern FCS and wheels, which you'll pretty much never see anywhere else. Having written that out, definitely keep the Al-Fao.
  • Ababeel vs. Uragan? Ababeel has the cooler name. Then again, if one had a cluster loadout they could both be in.
  • I can't find decent pictures of either the 23mm BRDM or the EE-3. If one or the other is open topped it could merit Very Good optics, as could the AMX-10 VFA (Or exceptional, I suppose).
  • I think Iraq operated the EE-9 Cascavel, possibly the Mark III with the 90mm Cockerill gun from the Scorpion 90. It could be a recon vehicle or an FSV.
  • Nobody else has rifle grenades and they're going to be weird and probably unrealistic in how they work. Easiest to just give Al'Eraq an RPK or something.
  • Everyone else's Sniper Teams have disposable launchers, how about the RPG-18 or the Zolja for Fa'uj too?
  • The Mi-2 and SA.319 are redundant with each other, why not get rid of one and replace it with the BO-105 with rockets you had a picture of?
  • Given the worse armour, worse cannon, different category and 5 point price difference I don't think the AMX-10P is redundant with the BMP-2.
  • The following decisions are made on the basis of earlier dates of introduction and whether they served in both the Iraqi and Syrian military: Toss the OT-62 ZU-23, the Fahd, the OT-64C and the Type 63. Toss the M-60P unless it's intro to service was 1980 exactly. The BTR-152 can probably be dispensed with. With the Panhard HOT I can't see anyone using either BRDM ATGM carrier.
  • The EE-11 is probably unnecessary, I think the Iraqis only had ones with KPVTs or something similar. If you can turn up one of the Autocannon variants that'd be superb though.
  • Ask Broth3r about the Chaimite, there's more than meets the eye to it. Apparently it can throw half a dozen grenades out of the front simultaneously if ambushed. Quite a laugh and he'll be 100% behind the project when he finds out that the last model he would need for a practically free Portuguese deck is up for grabs.
  • Again, with a HOT carrier up for grabs the SS.11 Alouette seems redundant. Maybe it could go over to the Recon tab alongside the Mi-2 to spice things up a bit?

Also I am 100% seriously unserious about the rocket L-39. I like the Hunter but I love the Albatros.
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Re: Arab Federation - proporsal for a possible future Nation DLC

Postby 47andrej » Thu 29 Dec 2016 17:36

FrangibleCover wrote:Alright, this has been a long time in coming but I'm just going to dump out a list of further thoughts about the deck as it stands. You already know I think it's great and I love the new air tab, this is mostly stuff on what I don't think will fly with Eugen and sorting out the redundancies. Everything I suggest taking out should be moved into a grab bag of other units at the bottom of the page, just like the other lists that have been on the forums, in case Eugen decide they want it.
  • The AMX-10 VFA seems to be an artillery observation vehicle, not a CV. That means it can go to the recon tab and there's no redundancy issue any more. If they had the AMX-10 PC then it's not worth a new model but it would be worth it if it kept the Autocannon.
    Its based off AMX-10 PC, but its redundant anyway. Iraq also had M577A2 CV.
    m577a2.png
    m577a2.png (437.42 KiB) Viewed 352 times
  • Most places have 10 man militia squads so maybe standardise the Baathist ones. I'd prefer to see the 15 man squads for Iran because of their, uh, their emphasis on shock and mass in assaults.
    Why not
  • No '80 shock squad is going to be pretty painful in Cat-C decks, which are still theoretically a feature of the game. Why not put in Syrian Republican Guard (Rep Guard and call the current lot Rep Guard '85) with AKMs, RPG-7s or RPG-18s and RPKs or RPDs? It'll also mean you have something to put in the Syrian unique transports, if they had any.
    Yeah, Cat C shock is usefull
  • The AGS squad with the machine gun too is probably a little much. Also, why are they shock? Republican Guard training?
    Yes its bit too much. AGS-17 was in use both in Iraq and Syria so its an option same as POL or CZE
  • Eugen are never going to let us get away with the TURMS FCS. Did either power look at anything else? Kontakt-5?
    Sadly i have no info about non-realized armor plans of either powers. I wonder when TURMS FCS was developed, as one could argument Syria made it earlier in Wargames slightly alternative timeline
  • I don't see the redundancy between the BTR-50 and the Praga, one is tracked and available in Mechanized and Armoured, the other is wheeled and available in Motorised.
    Good point.
  • Do we know which Osa the Osa is?
    Sadly, no.
  • Split the Roland into 'MAN Roland 2' on the truck chassis and 'AMX Roland 2' on the tank chassis.
    Depends which OSA version Iraq had wheeled Roland could be redundant
  • In terms of artillery I'd keep the GCT F1 because everyone else on Redfor has a 2S3 and I'd keep the D-30 on the T-34 because it's cat-c and far more interesting than another 2S1.
    Thats what i think would be best as well
  • I'm split on which Prototype SPG to keep. The Majnoon will be handier and generally probably more useful on the battlefield but the Al-Fao fits in nicely with the whole Gerard Bull BIG GUNZ thing that was going on at the time and provides an 8" class piece with modern FCS and wheels, which you'll pretty much never see anywhere else. Having written that out, definitely keep the Al-Fao.
    I would keep both, since they are both wheeled :)
  • Ababeel vs. Uragan? Ababeel has the cooler name. Then again, if one had a cluster loadout they could both be in.
    Yes, Ababeel is definitely more flavourfull. Syrian Uragan was rather exclusive piece of hardware outside USSR
  • I can't find decent pictures of either the 23mm BRDM or the EE-3. If one or the other is open topped it could merit Very Good optics, as could the AMX-10 VFA (Or exceptional, I suppose).
    I had picture of upgunned BRDM-2, EE-3 with AC not sure
  • I think Iraq operated the EE-9 Cascavel, possibly the Mark III with the 90mm Cockerill gun from the Scorpion 90. It could be a recon vehicle or an FSV.
    Iraq had both Cascavel 90mm and AML 90.
  • Nobody else has rifle grenades and they're going to be weird and probably unrealistic in how they work. Easiest to just give Al'Eraq an RPK or something.
    Rifle grenades were used pretty often. IIRC 4 of 9 man squad had those
  • Everyone else's Sniper Teams have disposable launchers, how about the RPG-18 or the Zolja for Fa'uj too?
    Atleast Spetznas VMF and NK recon have RPG-7
  • The Mi-2 and SA.319 are redundant with each other, why not get rid of one and replace it with the BO-105 with rockets you had a picture of?
  • Given the worse armour, worse cannon, different category and 5 point price difference I don't think the AMX-10P is redundant with the BMP-2.
  • The following decisions are made on the basis of earlier dates of introduction and whether they served in both the Iraqi and Syrian military: Toss the OT-62 ZU-23, the Fahd, the OT-64C and the Type 63. Toss the M-60P unless it's intro to service was 1980 exactly. The BTR-152 can probably be dispensed with. With the Panhard HOT I can't see anyone using either BRDM ATGM carrier.
  • The EE-11 is probably unnecessary, I think the Iraqis only had ones with KPVTs or something similar. If you can turn up one of the Autocannon variants that'd be superb though.
    There is a lot of redundancies just to show vast iraqi selection. Put them at the bottom could be better indeed
  • Ask Broth3r about the Chaimite, there's more than meets the eye to it. Apparently it can throw half a dozen grenades out of the front simultaneously if ambushed. Quite a laugh and he'll be 100% behind the project when he finds out that the last model he would need for a practically free Portuguese deck is up for grabs.
    :shock: I dont have Chaimite listed
  • Again, with a HOT carrier up for grabs the SS.11 Alouette seems redundant. Maybe it could go over to the Recon tab alongside the Mi-2 to spice things up a bit?
    Eugen always takes one crappy ATGM heli
Also I am 100% seriously unserious about the rocket L-39. I like the Hunter but I love the Albatros.
So have the picture then :)
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Re: Arab Federation - proporsal for a possible future Nation DLC

Postby Bougnas » Thu 29 Dec 2016 17:54

Maybe if there are too many similar wheeled APCs in the same era use one as a recon transport?
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Re: Arab Federation - proporsal for a possible future Nation DLC

Postby FrangibleCover » Thu 29 Dec 2016 18:15

47andrej wrote:
FrangibleCover wrote:The AGS squad with the machine gun too is probably a little much. Also, why are they shock? Republican Guard training?

Yes its bit too much. AGS-17 was in use both in Iraq and Syria so its an option same as POL or CZE

I'm not saying that an AGS squad is too much, I'm saying that an AGS squad with the RPD is too much and shock training might be too much unless the AGS was representative of or exclusive to the Republican Guard. Honestly I'd just make it the same as the Czech one, there's enough of a shitshow going on about grenade launchers already.
I would keep both [the Al-Fao and the Majnoon], since they are both wheeled :)

I'd worry about Iraq being the only nation to get two prototype 10 second FCS artillery pieces. I agree that the Majnoon is a fun system but I think that puts it at the top of the list of redundant units rather than actually in the deck.
Iraq had both Cascavel 90mm and AML 90.

Hmm. One in the recon tab, one as an FSV?
FrangibleCover wrote:Nobody else has rifle grenades and they're going to be weird and probably unrealistic in how they work. Easiest to just give Al'Eraq an RPK or something.

Rifle grenades were used pretty often. IIRC 4 of 9 man squad had those

Yeah but a whole bunch of other nations had rifle grenades too and none of them get them in Wargame, the same as nobody gets hand grenades. If you can come up with a statline for them that's interesting, useful and balanced then I'll be 100% behind you on them but that's a job of work in itself.
Atleast Spetznas VMF and NK recon have RPG-7

I stand corrected. Carry on then.
:shock: I dont have Chaimite listed

Sorry, Icehawk did. Did it not exist or did you not list it in your one for another reason? If it did exist then it's a definite nice to have option.
Eugen always takes one crappy ATGM heli

Are you calling the Bo-105 HOT good :)? Eugen always take one crap ATGM heli because they want it in Cat-C decks. The Bo-105 is Cat-C. Job done, no stupid bloody MCLOS helis that can't outrange a thrown rock.
L-29.jpg

L-29

2

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Anyway, the model's already in the game, asking for an L-39ZO makes it more likely that we'll see the nation in this Wargame.

Bougnas wrote:Maybe if there are too many similar wheeled APCs in the same era use one as a recon transport?

Actually that'd be a good place to use the EE-11 Urutu next to it's stablemate, the EE-9 Cascavel. If that is a KPVT rather then a Browning we might be in a little trouble but equally this could be the pilot of the non-KE KPV rounds.
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Re: [Non/Future Nation] Baathist Alliance: Iraq and Syria

Postby 47andrej » Thu 12 Jan 2017 23:04

Low-level flight jet refueling, iraqi airforce practiced it almost exclusively. Was used to stay away from iranian radars.
Image

Pretty interesting review of first iraqi air victory versus USAF.
https://warisboring.com/who-shot-down-u-s-navy-pilot-scott-speicher-6455bb966df5#.qws958ffi


Iraqi BRDM-2 23mm autocannon mod.
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Re: [Non/Future Nation] Baathist Alliance: Iraq and Syria

Postby FrangibleCover » Thu 12 Jan 2017 23:41

47andrej wrote:Iraqi BRDM-2 23mm autocannon mod.
Image

Unfortunately it looks as though the Autocannon EE-3 was close topped as well, which means they'd both be good optics. I think the EE-3 is more unique but there's already one in the tab so probably just use the BRDM unless the EE-3 would have markedly different armour or soft stats.

Low-level flight jet refueling, iraqi airforce practiced it almost exclusively. Was used to stay away from iranian radars.
Image

Perhaps a smidge of extra ToT for Iraqi aircraft then? I'm not saying that everyone else can't do airborne refueling but if Iraq's wasTactical then it'd be a cool bit of flavour like the US aircraft that currently get/got (don't remember if it got removed) better ToT because of their humongous tanker fleet.
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Re: [Non/Future Nation] Baathist Alliance: Iraq and Syria

Postby Killertomato » Fri 13 Jan 2017 00:04

The US has never had any extras because of strategic assets.
orcbuster wrote:USSR gets prototype marsupials, why would you need moose when you got stuff with kickers like that AND transport capability? And I'm not even gonna START on the french Marsupilami, I don't even think thats a real animal! Why no trolls for Norway?

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Re: [Non/Future Nation] Baathist Alliance: Iraq and Syria

Postby FrangibleCover » Fri 13 Jan 2017 00:18

Killertomato wrote:The US has never had any extras because of strategic assets.

Could have sworn they did? Maybe it was just a suggestion I really liked.

Bin it then, Iraq ain't getting it if the US don't.
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