Commercial success of different Eugen games

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Razzmann
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Re: Commercial success of different Eugen games

Postby Razzmann » Wed 21 Feb 2018 20:25

Fade2Gray wrote:
Razzmann wrote:An interesting comment regarding Eugen's "finances" on r/wargame: https://www.reddit.com/r/wargame/commen ... d/dujyy94/

Are interns being "almost not paid" a regular thing in the gaming industry?

From what I heard: more or less, yeah. But I think the main issue here is that there just is not a lot of competition in France; not a lot of other game devs to go to.

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Re: Commercial success of different Eugen games

Postby molnibalage » Wed 21 Feb 2018 23:42

Mike wrote:
molnibalage wrote:
varis wrote:Reserved for further discussion and notes on the methodology

I have doubst about the whole process. ALB after 4 years of release had larger playerbase than StDV after some months of release while in your list they are on the same level. The succsess of ALB was the direct reason why was so succesful the RD...


Or because RD is a great game in many people's opinion, which we all know you don't share.

Only problem your comment has nothing to do with mine. I did not say this time RD is bad. But is based on ALB which even after 3+ years had much more players then StDV. How could have both the same scores...?

(RD introduced many great new features, the amphi, log chain, etc. The problem is ther era shit and because of that the utterly shit and endless buff and stats...)

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Re: Commercial success of different Eugen games

Postby molnibalage » Wed 21 Feb 2018 23:59

varis wrote:
molnibalage wrote:
varis wrote:Reserved for further discussion and notes on the methodology

I have doubst about the whole process. ALB after 4 years of release had larger playerbase than StDV after some months of release while in your list they are on the same level. The succsess of ALB was the direct reason why was so succesful the RD...


Oh you are right that there are LOTS of room for discussion regarding the peak player statistics - but even this is a lot better than "my favourite game is the most successful!". Regarding your actual point, it is a bit hard to judge SD as it's still a new game and the data is not yet available. Also we don't know what Eugen & Paradox might have in store for it in the future.

One thing in particular is that updates tend to have a big effect on peak player count which can be seen in some cases in my stats. I take the peak for the given one month eg. the 6 months stat for ALB is November 2013 and I also checked there was nothing really really major during the months I used for stats (we got a bit lucky). Still an update can easily double the peak counts for an old release.

There has been lots happening with the peak player counts. I recall EE being down to 300 daily just 3 months into the release, due to the Heavy Tank Meta. It recovered and the rest is history ;)
.

And this is why got less score the EE by the method. Abot 80% all my Hungarian friends who I played came with ALB, about half of them never played EE and ALB was the base of their hopes in RD. I played EE after I finised with RD just to see where came the series.

EE was a good idea, ALB refined and expanded ther universe in the best way and RD succesfully after years of hard work ruined it...
Along with the dumb playerbase itself. In ALB I saw tons of different decks...
...

In RD I got stupid "only A cat lobbies". One of my best game was C cat only minor game... Only problem I could play only once...
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The final nail into the coffin were the payware DLCs, especially YUG... I had to laugh on what I saw...

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Re: Commercial success of different Eugen games

Postby varis » Thu 22 Feb 2018 00:28

molnibalage wrote:Only problem your comment has nothing to do with mine. I did not say this time RD is bad. But is based on ALB which even after 3+ years had much more players then StDV. How could have both the same scores...?


You can find an answer to your question by looking at the scores for each factor and their corresponding weights, see below:

games-sd-detail.png
games-sd-detail.png (26.05 KiB) Viewed 448 times


SD had initially a large number of players (sales) which is given a weight of 15% in the CSI and much more in the Nobias version of the index; also the metascore is higher than for any other Eugen game and likewise the median playtime is highest for any game - the average player has spent lots of time with this game.

I've filled in the second post in the thread with details on how the index was calculated and so, some details on error sources etc are still missing. It is possible the model is too sensitive to changes in metascore, since the differences are usually very small (= small standard deviation). It's only the first iteration of the model and over time models usually can be improved quite much. I think most value could still be in just listing all the data in the same table for all the games and providing a good discussion item with several concrete points to talk about.

I aimed to develop an index that considers several indicators of success, not just number of copies sold (inflated from promotions and free extras) or number of players online on a particular period (relevant mostly for the multiplayer community; and the lifecycle of a game should be considered). The weights might be a bit off from what is most beneficial in the end - I don't think we have ever had a discussion on this level considering the commercial aspects of Eugen games.

I wanted to focus on the total revenue side of things. (And for this analysis I did not consider how the money is split to developer - publisher - Valve, what is the costs level and structure, etc - in other words, profitability of the business in the end.) But is revenue all there is? Obviously it is not, also the fame of the game and the ongoing multiplayer community are factors. But how important is multiplayer - if half the players are single player, it's only a part of the story.
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Re: Commercial success of different Eugen games

Postby Fade2Gray » Thu 22 Feb 2018 03:03

molnibalage wrote:In RD I got stupid "only A cat lobbies". One of my best game was C cat only minor game... Only problem I could play only once...

Well gee, being locked into USA or USSR and doing nothing but spamming tanks is not very popular? What a shock...
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Re: Commercial success of different Eugen games

Postby Pr.shadocko » Thu 22 Feb 2018 12:00

molnibalage wrote: [i]No flaw in WAB compared to W:RD[/i]


As the guy who sucessfully played a cat C polish deck on the first 4v4 competitive tournament in ALB (even if we didn't win at the end), i assure you W:AB have way, way more flaws than W:RD in pure game design and pure "exploit" (cat C deck for instance were the most grievous example in term of pure spam and map control)

Overall, everything were better in W:RD, only the naval side didn't work that well but most map didn't have this side anyway.

I can't tell about the DLC nation in WRD tho.

@Varis: sorry to have stolen your conclusion :mrgreen:
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Re: Commercial success of different Eugen games

Postby Razzmann » Thu 22 Feb 2018 12:52

Gameplay and balance wise (well, at least pre Israel), RD is miles ahead of its predecessors, without a doubt.

If you are roleplayer or someone who gets off perfect simulations and all that jazz, then sure, the previous ones might be better. But then also admit that you don't know jack shit about balance.

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Re: Commercial success of different Eugen games

Postby molnibalage » Thu 22 Feb 2018 15:08

Fade2Gray wrote:
molnibalage wrote:In RD I got stupid "only A cat lobbies". One of my best game was C cat only minor game... Only problem I could play only once...

Well gee, being locked into USA or USSR and doing nothing but spamming tanks is not very popular? What a shock...

This was one of te most idiotic comment ever...
One of the main difference is between ALB the ATMGs. In ALB many ATGMs could be usable even cat B or C. In RD anything below TOW2 and similar stuff is almost pure garbage.

Another is the recon. Comparing to ALB even untis with exceptioal opcits are blind in RD. It is so "funny" when your units in RD cannot spot units after gunfire in treelines escorted by a VG optics recon vehicle...

The modeling values in RD are totally inconsistent. Guns generally guns have the same calc. acc nn the same era at same range as GUIDED missiles... On best A cat missile does it much better with higher veterancy but there comes the reroll...

Thr 2275 m gun range was rare in ALB while in RD became almost a standard. ---> Also made it worse the gun vs ATGM situation.

The arty had killing power in ALB at some level but it rather was a supression tool. The main different were their avail and aim. In RB only mortars and top tier arty are usable in most of gametypes because of long aim time of any not A cat top tier arty. ---> Mortar spam...

Top tier arty has bette ACC at any range as bombers. ---> CV sniping isse..

Etc.


The abstraction in RD is totally screwed compared to ALB. ALB has only AP issue below 450 or 300 meters, you could kill with AP at close range anyting heavily armored because was min. penetration range. This is fixed in RD. Only problem screwed tons of other things...

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Re: Commercial success of different Eugen games

Postby Fade2Gray » Thu 22 Feb 2018 15:38

molnibalage wrote:
Fade2Gray wrote:
molnibalage wrote:In RD I got stupid "only A cat lobbies". One of my best game was C cat only minor game... Only problem I could play only once...

Well gee, being locked into USA or USSR and doing nothing but spamming tanks is not very popular? What a shock...

This was one of te most idiotic comment ever...
One of the main difference is between ALB the ATMGs. In ALB many ATGMs could be usable even cat B or C. In RD anything below TOW2 and similar stuff is almost pure garbage.

Another is the recon. Comparing to ALB even untis with exceptioal opcits are blind in RD. It is so "funny" when your units in RD cannot spot units after gunfire in treelines escorted by a VG optics recon vehicle...

The modeling values in RD are totally inconsistent. Guns generally guns have the same calc. acc nn the same era at same range as GUIDED missiles... On best A cat missile does it much better with higher veterancy but there comes the reroll...

Thr 2275 m gun range was rare in ALB while in RD became almost a standard. ---> Also made it worse the gun vs ATGM situation.

The arty had killing power in ALB at some level but it rather was a supression tool. The main different were their avail and aim. In RB only mortars and top tier arty are usable in most of gametypes because of long aim time of any not A cat top tier arty. ---> Mortar spam...

Top tier arty has bette ACC at any range as bombers. ---> CV sniping isse..

Etc.


The abstraction in RD is totally screwed compared to ALB. ALB has only AP issue below 450 or 300 meters, you could kill with AP at close range anyting heavily armored because was min. penetration range. This is fixed in RD. Only problem screwed tons of other things...


If you are going to talk about someone making the most "idiotic comment ever" but then turn around and use the shifting goalpost fallacy, you might want to take a long and hard look in the mirror. I'm not even going to touch on some of the other flawed comparisons you have made.

We got it, you are salty about RD and miss ALB, so why don't you go back to ALB and stay there and pray for someone else to join one of your meme lobbies?
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Re: Commercial success of different Eugen games

Postby varis » Thu 22 Feb 2018 15:58

molnibalage wrote:
Fade2Gray wrote:
molnibalage wrote:In RD I got stupid "only A cat lobbies". One of my best game was C cat only minor game... Only problem I could play only once...

Well gee, being locked into USA or USSR and doing nothing but spamming tanks is not very popular? What a shock...

This was one of te most idiotic comment ever...


What's with the tone guys? :roll:

I feel going into ATGM or recon mechanics is a bit beside the point, I wanted to dig up some (preferably hard) numbers to see what (a lot of) other players thought about a particular game. What a small clique of elite players think about the design of a game might be just about irrelevant to how many dollars it brings to the chest of the developer.

Let me illustrate. If you take a look at my Steam profile, you see that I have only 61 hours logged for ALB. I generally thought the design was not really spot on - ALB was a little bit of an abomination and a bastard child in the saga of Wargame. The icon style was bad, maps were misdesigned with linear corridors and no room for EE style open field engagements, meta was somewhere between tank spam and plane spam.

Since the air force and the gameplay in ALB were

Taken by the Dark Powers
Tortured and mutilated
A ruined and terrible form of life -

And now perfected


in what is the mature RD (with also tanks back in the meta since balance changes somewhat early on), it's easy for me to forget those 612k ALB copies sold, and the CSI Nobias for the gameis not bad either, speaking rather for a nice continuum from the earliest Wargame through ALB up to the Lawful King and Heir which is Red Dragon. So subjective impressions are not much to go by when you consider which game was the really big one for the developer.

And of course you would take the model with a grain of salt and apply your own analysis on top of it. Knowing my bias for RD might make one suspicious of the scores, but I think there's a more obvious reason why RD performs so well overall and especially in the long term statistics: Eugen has allowed it to persist with no direct replacement - until SD last spring with practically no replacement at all - and it has been developed as such as well. ALB in contrast was upgraded to RD in a mere 11 months - and I think you can see the effect in the above table.
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