T-64BV overpriced

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Torrisco
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T-64BV overpriced

Postby Torrisco » Sat 24 Nov 2012 07:05

50pts more expensive than T-64BM:

adding +4 frontal armor and +1 side armor, stabilizer from bad to normal, +1ac, +1ap, but decreasing speed 5km/h.
i think 35-40pts more than the BM is enough/115/120pts.

other comparisons:

T-62M-I vs T-62M-V

the "V" is 15pts more expensive:

adding +2 ac, +2ap, +1 frontal and side armor and stabilizer from bad to normal. all theese improvements only by 15pts more.

LEO2 vs LEO2A1:

+1 side and +1 front armor by 5pts.

M1 abrams vs M1IP abrams:

+1ap, +1 front armor, +1 side armor and stabilizer from normal to good, for 15pts more.

T72 vs T72-A:

+1 ac, +1ap, stabilizer from none to bad, optics from low to normal, operative range from 500km to 900km, by 15pts
however, i don't think the T72-B is overpriced being 60pts more expensive than the T72-A, is just like the T80B but with a better ATGM and double ammo for it, better optics and operational range, 1 less front armor but 1 more side armor.

if you compare T72B vs T64BV:

T72B is 10pts cheaper, -2ac in the main gun, -3 frontal armor, bad stabilizer but... has +2ac and +1ap ATGM, more main gun ammo, 5km/h faster, +2 side armor, +1 rear and top armor and nearly x2 operational range... Or same price as T72B or even 5pts cheaper, but never more expensive, the T64BV should be.
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Re: T-64BV overpriced

Postby MadMantiz » Sat 24 Nov 2012 11:16

I agree with this.

Most prices are set totally arbitrary instead of based on a logical formula of a fixed price for each point of armor, type of gun, missiles, speed and whatever added together.

This is why some units with similar characteristics have a very different cost. Also the fact that guns and ATGM performance changed a lot, sometimes with price adjustments and sometimes without, change the relative value of other units.

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Re: T-64BV overpriced

Postby urielventis » Sat 24 Nov 2012 11:20

Maybe the price are also made with the historic availability in mind ?
I must search data on T-64...

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Re: T-64BV overpriced

Postby Azaz3l » Sat 24 Nov 2012 11:51

I don't really like T-64BV in game because of inaccurate ATGM and 3 point side armor, other than that, the tank is decent.

Also for comparison: Stock T-80 costs 90 points, the tank coming after it, T-80B costs 110 points; B version only adds Kobra 13AP ATGM and nothing else. So basically TGM costs 20 points...?
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Re: T-64BV overpriced

Postby chema1994 » Sat 24 Nov 2012 13:19

The T-64BV is a strange tank created by Eugen, it should be IMO:
- Same gun as T-64B/BM 7/9/4 but with better ammunition. Should be better stabilized, but changing the stabilizer is a problem in WP tanks is another problem more complicated. The full range is OK since they are supposed to use better ammunition
- Kontakt-1 armor all around (who puts ERA only in the front?) 9/5/2/2 better than the non-ERA T-72B

For 130pts you have a very nice tank with decent armor (better than the T-72B and T-80/B) only limited by range and fuel eficiency

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Re: T-64BV overpriced

Postby Major Snails » Sat 24 Nov 2012 13:21

All Heavy tanks are overpriced atm lol...

With current META and gameplay, no tank should cost more than arround 100 pts....

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FLX
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Re: T-64BV overpriced

Postby FLX » Sat 24 Nov 2012 13:40

Wow watch out many have tried to balance tank price most failed and the wisest avoid it at all cost because you cannot propose a price change without comparing each tank to every other tanks of the game.
Move the price of a single tank and you end up changing the price of every tanks in the game. ;)

50pts more expensive than T-64BM:

adding +4 frontal armor and +1 side armor, stabilizer from bad to normal, +1ac, +1ap, but decreasing speed 5km/h.
i think 35-40pts more than the BM is enough/115/120pts.
You forget gun range, this is a huge advantage.
Armor is a non linear bonus as well : going from armor 1 to armor 2 double your armor but it's not a huge bonus. Going from armor 9 to armor 10 only improve your armor by 11% but can divise damage taken by 2.

Going from armor 6 to armor 10 is a huge bonus as well. However the still weak side armor tone this down.

The stabilizer is important as well because those tanks are too expensive to be bought with veterancy that would give a free stabilizer.

I think the closest tank from the T64BV in terms of performance is the T80BV so let's compare them :
T80BV has +5kmph, -1 acc, +2 side armor, big size, only 2 missiles, better missiles, 25 main gun ammo.
Why is the T80BV superior ? I think it's only because of the side armor.

For 130 points the T64BV seem a good choice statisticaly but in the facts it is not. The inconsistency of it's armor make its usefullness very random. So what price are we supposed to give to randomness ?
How should micro management of the front armor be rewarded ?
It's hard question because the performance of the tank is intimately bound to the skill of the player.
I've done wonders with T64BV but when I see a group of 4 T64BV I destroy it with light units with much more ease than 4 T72 which cost less than half the price.

T-62M-I vs T-62M-V

the "V" is 15pts more expensive:

adding +2 ac, +2ap, +1 frontal and side armor and stabilizer from bad to normal. all theese improvements only by 15pts more.
T-62M-V has also a better range with it's gun but if it looks like a huge boost for only 15points on paper in facts it's not the case because you buy the tank for it's ATGM not it's gun.
If you come in gun range this tank sucks for it's price. Even the pre patch AMX32 for 100 points was better.
This tank will certainly be countered by ATGM so the armor is useless or a horde of light tanks and the gun with 6RoF won't be of much help here once again.
In the end you pay 15 points to get the same efficiency than the T62M-I in 99% of the cases.


LEO2 vs LEO2A1:

+1 side and +1 front armor by 5pts
You have 8 Leo1 compared to 4 Leo2A1 but you're right that it's a bad idea to buy Leo2 as long as you have Leo2A1 in stock. Should the Leo2A1 cost 130 or the Leo2 cost 115 it's hard to say since the closest tank is the KpZ70 that is fairly different.

M1 abrams vs M1IP abrams:

+1ap, +1 front armor, +1 side armor and stabilizer from normal to good, for 15pts more.
Same here availability is 8 for the M1 and 4 for the M1IP which has to be taken into account.
Don't let the green "Good" fool you, moving accuracy is 25% for the M1 and 29% for the M1IP so it's not a huge boost. However the armor boost is a good bonus at that level of armor especialy the side armor.
They are pretty much balanced, but I think increasing the gap between them by 5 points would help the M1 to be chosen over the M1IP. At the moment I dont think it's a good idea to pick a M1 over a M1IP.
Now the hard question is : would you increse M1IP price or decrease M1 price ? :twisted:

T72 vs T72-A:

+1 ac, +1ap, stabilizer from none to bad, optics from low to normal, operative range from 500km to 900km, by 15pts
You have forgotten gun range once again which is the biggest boost.
Once again price and bonuses cannot be seen a regular scale : being cheap means that you will earn veterancy faster, that you will be able to field more tank.
The big advantage of the T72 is to be the best armored tank in it's level of price. You use it as screen shield for other units. It will take hits, inflict moral damage by missing all it's shots and die with the feeling of performed duty.
The T72A is 33% more expensive, still miss most of it's shots, will resist a bit better but you have less of them so they will take more hits individualy. The operational range and gun range are the main boost that make you take it over the basic T72.

I don't think the T72-B is overpriced being 60pts more expensive than the T72-A, is just like the T80B but with a better ATGM and double ammo for it, better optics and operational range, 1 less front armor but 1 more side armor.
The T72B is a tank average in everything, good at nothing (except moving range) too expensive to be a good ATGM plateform and not enough range to be out of danger, too inacurate to stop a horde of light vehicles, not enough frontal armor to fight other heavy tanks in gun range.
Statistics may look okay but the tanks is just bad at everything.

To make it interesting I gameplay wise I would increase it's armor and especialy its side armor to give it something the T64/T80 don't have.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Finaly you didn't fail miserably in your attempt to balance tanks and didn't proposed ridiculous change, that's a good start ! :D
The next step is to make a complete system where everything is taken into account. Good luck ! (mine is still WiP for a long time)
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Re: T-64BV overpriced

Postby praslovan » Sat 24 Nov 2012 14:28

FLX wrote:Move the price of a single tank and you end up changing the price of every tanks in the game. ;)

*Cough cough* AMX32 *cough* decrease *cough cough* Leo1 *cough* increase *cough* stupid *cough*.

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Re: T-64BV overpriced

Postby Drrty-D » Sat 24 Nov 2012 14:31

praslovan wrote:*Cough cough* AMX32 *cough* decrease *cough cough* Leo1 *cough* increase *cough* stupid *cough*.


Quit smoking praslo,its not good for your health,"cough cough " :D .
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Re: T-64BV overpriced

Postby praslovan » Sat 24 Nov 2012 14:34

Drrty-D wrote:
praslovan wrote:*Cough cough* AMX32 *cough* decrease *cough cough* Leo1 *cough* increase *cough* stupid *cough*.


Quit smoking praslo,its not good for your health,"cough cough " :D .

I think I got tuberculosis after reading that. :|

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