Wargame: Total Realism

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DeuZerre
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Re: Wargame: Total Realism

Postby DeuZerre » Thu 4 Apr 2013 20:50

ikalugin wrote:
DeuZerre wrote:Don't deviate the topic. Let's assume the bullet hit "Out of penetrating range".

This only matters if the bulletproof vests are widely spread and can actually stop rifle ammo.

Interestengly Soviets did mass field 6B3-01 and 6B4-01 vests, which did protect agaist the said AR ammo.
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Back on topic: Stopping power. Basically, the force of the impact.
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Re: Wargame: Total Realism

Postby Boogie Van » Thu 4 Apr 2013 21:19

I suggest you two avoid this conversation completely as there's no right or wrongs here, just a lot of you two trying to make each other out to be wrong.

And while the M16 of the time might not have been more accurate in its standard issue format, the rifle is certainly far more capable of accuracy, better handling, and adjustment from role to role than the AK-74. Watching Ikalugin talk small-arms is like watching the History Channel only filmed in Russia.

If you two really want to have fun in that regard and actually have a semi-serious discussion, you should be comparing the in-flight ballistics and the terminal ballistics of 5.56 in comparison to 5.45 out of a similar barrel length and rifling as the M-16/AK; the last time I did or anything similar that was two years ago so I can't really point you in one direction or the other, I know a lot more about 7.62x51 in comparison to 7.62x54.

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Re: Wargame: Total Realism

Postby ikalugin » Thu 4 Apr 2013 21:23

DeuZerre wrote:
Back on topic: Stopping power. Basically, the force of the impact.

Sure, so now you switch back from penetrating power to stopping power (because when you tried to get other factors such as bullet proof vests in you lost). The effects there are the same for two weapons.
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Re: Wargame: Total Realism

Postby ikalugin » Thu 4 Apr 2013 21:24

Boogie Van wrote:I suggest you two avoid this conversation completely as there's no right or wrongs here, just a lot of you two trying to make each other out to be wrong.

And while the M16 of the time might not have been more accurate in its standard issue format, the rifle is certainly far more capable of accuracy, better handling, and adjustment from role to role than the AK-74. Watching Ikalugin talk small-arms is like watching the History Channel only filmed in Russia.

If you two really want to have fun in that regard and actually have a semi-serious discussion, you should be comparing the in-flight ballistics and the terminal ballistics of 5.56 in comparison to 5.45 out of a similar barrel length and rifling as the M-16/AK; the last time I did or anything similar that was two years ago so I can't really point you in one direction or the other, I know a lot more about 7.62x51 in comparison to 7.62x54.

So no group sizes? I am disapointed with M16A2 supporters.
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Re: Wargame: Total Realism

Postby Soundwolf776 » Thu 4 Apr 2013 21:27

AK penetrates a railroad track. Lengthwise.
AK vs M16 thread - so much nostalgia.

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Re: Wargame: Total Realism

Postby Boogie Van » Thu 4 Apr 2013 21:29

ikalugin wrote:So no group sizes? I am disapointed with M16A2 supporters.


That's a very, very limiting constraint and wouldn't particularly show you the strengths or weaknesses of either weapon. I'm not saying that's to be immediately discounted, but it's not really going to get you that far as it's entirely, entirely, entirely dependent on the rifle's set up, maintenance, and the tightness that the armorer put them together. Small arms are not a science, ikalugin, they are an art; ballistics is where you're allowed to be crude and handle numbers, in the actual firearms themselves, until you're talking match quality pieces, you're quite simply taking into account too many variables for the data to be worthwhile. If you want to compare the weapons in the manner you're doing, you two should stick to what can actually be number-crunched.

Soundwolf776 wrote:AK penetrates a railroad track. Lengthwise.
AK vs M16 thread - so much nostalgia.


The obviously superior weapon is the M14.

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Re: Wargame: Total Realism

Postby ikalugin » Thu 4 Apr 2013 21:30

AK74 vs M16A2

There is a difference.
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Re: Wargame: Total Realism

Postby Boogie Van » Thu 4 Apr 2013 21:33

ikalugin wrote:AK74 vs M16A2

There is a difference.


Are match quality AK74s even a thing?

I think the only time I've ever heard the word 'match' and any Russian firearm ever thrown together in the same sentence, they were talking about 7.62x54mm weapons, most certainly not 5.45mms.

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Re: Wargame: Total Realism

Postby ikalugin » Thu 4 Apr 2013 21:36

I was refering to that M16A2 vs AK74 and M16 vs AK(47) are different threats to participate in.

The low production quality is a myth for relevant Soviet produced rifles.
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Re: Wargame: Total Realism

Postby urielventis » Thu 4 Apr 2013 21:40

What is interesting to study isn't the weapons, both AK47/74 and M16A1/2 are good weapons who eliminate their enemy. What is interesting in this case is doctrine of use, US army put the emphasis on precise firing in semi auto, suppression fire is the M60/249 job. USSR give more emphasis on volume of fire to overwhelm opposing forces, a second world war observation (a majority of veteran (US, british, soviet...) explain that most of the time they don't see the enemy and release fire toward the bush/building... firing at them).
The US just continue with the Garand idea (fast precise shooting), USSR combinate Mosin/PPSH/SVT in a single universal weapon.

It could be interesting to see, depending of the period (post vietnam/1985), what was the standard of each armies.
Finding training manual who give what was expected of a soldier would be a good start.

Ps: about russian doctrine, the Dragunov always bother me, was it in every squad or only higher?
In my reserve unit, precision rifle (FRF-2) was a platoon asset.
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